How to honour the spiritual gifts the world forgot - Caitlín Matthews
Episode 544, released 16th April 2026.
Caitlín Matthews, author of over 80 books and shamanic teacher, explains why oracular gifts are survival-level human capacities, how divination works as a practice of truth-seeking, and what it means to receive and transmit a gift responsibly.
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Caitlín is an internationally renowned author, a teacher of shamanic training programme, a facilitator of Systemic Ritual® and the co-founder of the Foundation for Inspirational and Oracular Studies (FÍOS). She is the author of over 80 books, including Diary of a Soul Doctor, Singing the Soul Back Home, the Art of Celtic Seership, Celtic Devotional and The Celtic Book of the Dead. Her books have won a number of awards. She is known internationally for her work on the spiritual, mythic and ancestral traditions of Britain and Ireland. She teaches and works with communities and spiritual institutions worldwide from Iceland to Portugal and from USA to Australia.
Caitlín is a co-founder of the Foundation for Inspirational and Oracular Studies (FÍOS), which is dedicated to the sacred arts that shape the landscape of the soul, via vision, dream and memory. FÍOS hosts masterclasses with exemplars of living, oracular sacred traditions that are rarely recorded in writing or given an honourable place in modern society. Caitlín has had a shamanic healing practice in Oxford for the last 30 years, working in the community to deepen connections to the ancestral traditions which are our heritage.
In this episode, Lian and Caitlín trace the gifts that sit outside what culture currently names or honours, from the everyday instinct that tells you to take your umbrella to the full weight of the second sight. They move through the history of oracular practice across cultures, how divination has always lived at the heart of serious decision-making, and what it actually means to receive truth on behalf of another person, including what to pass on, what to withhold, and how the transmission itself can harm when handled without care. Lian brings her own experience, including a medium's evening where her father refused to speak through the medium because, as he apparently insisted, she could do it herself.
The conversation then opens into the times we are in now, and what it asks of those who carry these gifts, as a practical, grounded orientation toward truth when the world is moving fast and the temptation toward reaction is everywhere.
Listen if you carry gifts you've never fully claimed, or you're still negotiating with the weight of what you can see.
We’d love to know what YOU think about this week’s show. Let’s carry on the conversation… please leave a comment below.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
Why the gifts we now treat as peripheral were once the practical centre of how communities survived and made decisions
How to ask a question that the oracle can actually answer, and why the wrong question will give you the wrong result
What happens when someone with real sight passes on only what serves, and keeps back what doesn't
Resources and stuff that we spoke about:
For Caitlín’s books & courses see: www.hallowquest.org.uk
For more of Caitlín’s writing on a range of topics, including a year-long course, Blessings of the Celtic Year, see her Hallowquest Sanctuary at https://substack.com/@caitlinmatthewstigerna
Join UNIO, The Community for Wild Sovereign Souls: This is for the old souls in this new world… Discover your kin & unite with your soul’s calling to truly live your myth.
Register your interest for the upcoming Wild Sovereign Soul journey here.
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Thank you!
Lian & Jonathan
Episode Transcript:
Please note: We are a small team and not able to check through the transcript our software provides. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@bemythical.com.
Lian (00:00)
Are the second psych capacities that our culture has forgotten actually survival level human gifts that we can't afford to ignore? Hello, my beautiful soul seekers. This week I'm joined once again by the wise and wonderful Caitlin Matthews, author of over 80 books and a shamanic teacher to explore why oracular gifts are survival level human capacities, how divination works as a practice of truth seeking and what it means to receive and transmit this gift responsibly. We speak about the gifts that sit outside what our culture currently names or honours from that everyday instinct that tells you take an umbrella today to the full weight of a second sight. We move through the history of our oracular practice across cultures, how divination has always lived at the heart of serious decision-making, and how the transmission itself can harm when handled without care. Our conversation then opens into the times that we are in now and what it asks of those of us who carry these gifts. So listen, if you carry gifts you've never fully claimed or you're still negotiating with the weight of what you can see.
But first, if you've just arrived here, welcome. If you've come back, welcome home. And if you keep finding yourself here without subscribing, your soul clearly knows what it's doing. Honour that call and go ahead and subscribe. It's challenging to live in this crazy modern world. Wild sovereign soul is what we know will help.
And so if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path and your heart longs for guidance, kinship and support, come join us in UNIO, the community for soul seekers. UNIO is the living home for the wild sovereign soul path where together we reclaim our wildness, actualise our sovereignty and awaken our souls. You can discover more and walk with us by hopping over to wildsovereignsoul.com slash UNIO. click the link in the description.
And if you're called to go even deeper on your wild sovereign soul path, come join us for the upcoming wild sovereign soul course, a three month live immersive initiatory journey into becoming a wild sovereign soul. You can register your interest at wildsovereignsoul.com slash WSS. And now back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.
Lian (02:32)
Hello Caitlin welcome back to the show.
Caitlín Matthews (02:37)
Thank you, Lian It's good to be back
Lian (02:38)
And it's also I was recalling what you said. I think it was last time we spoke about we're kind of like pen pals and we kind of go off and do our own thing. And then we are kind of letter exchange these episodes. So I'm loving being back in communication with you.
Caitlín Matthews (02:53)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So like diaries from the beyond? Or the bits between, yes?
Lian (02:59)
Yes. Which everyone else gets to be a fly in the wall.
So we have got a really juicy topic for today and it was suggested by Jonathan, I was asking him before the show, what would be a really interesting conversation for Caitlin and I to have? And it was him that suggested this topic of gifts so that we could might say, you know, shamanic gifts or spiritual gifts or psychic gifts, but these are gifts that are outside of what our culture typically talks about, knows, takes seriously. But certainly for us and our listeners, there is, there is this recognition that yes, as we were talking about earlier, there's a very human ability, to work beyond the material that to a large extent culturally we've forgotten. And then there's also some people within a culture that has perhaps a greater helping of those kind of gifts because they're meant to use them in service. And so I think we'll probably end up talking about both and all the different ways, what can get in the way of that, the ways these things show up, but that's what we're going to talk about. So do you want to?
Caitlín Matthews (04:08)
Yes. Yeah.
search.
Lian (04:20)
Start with your, I guess, definition. What, What is it we're talking about today from your perspective?
Caitlín Matthews (04:28)
The gifts that are not appreciated, I think, is probably what we could sort of, you know, to define really, which is the gifts that were we living in the Mesolithic would have been astoundingly useful because, you know, there would be the, there's no meat in the larder, what are we going to eat today? And it would be, you know, where are the herds of animals today? You know, it would be the… they're not in sight, which direction should we go out in? So I think that very basic, or that someone woke up that morning with a dream and say, I know the mammoths are all coming from the Northeast today. So it's like, good, we can use the cliff, or whatever. So I think that those are the gifts that were deeply appreciated and that people could see the consequences of,
Lian (05:10)
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (05:25)
I think I'll marry my daughter to your son if that's all the same, would be the, no, that's not a good idea because the outcome of that would be something that would be unfortunate for everyone, not just for the two young people. So, but today, I mean, If you go into work and you say you've had a dream, you're okay.
Lian (05:35)
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (05:51)
because everybody dreams and that's still, regardless of anything else, okay for people to hear. You can't go in and say you've written a poem because people think you're a bit dotty. But if you come in and say, last night as I was talking to my dead grandmother, you're definitely in a, you know, region of, you know, let's leave that there, let's change the topic.
Lian (06:04)
Mm.
Hehehehe
Caitlín Matthews (06:17)
But actually everyone has understandings about that which is not here yet and also they have it in a sort of a deep and embedded way. So I mean just very, very ordinary things, For example, I remember sewing name tags into my son's new school clothing because he was going to a new school and as I was doing it the spirits were sitting on my shoulder saying, why are you doing that?
Lian (06:31)
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (06:49)
It's like, well, because he's going to a new school. it's like, no, he's not going to that school. He was there three days and he hated it. mean, to the extent that we had to go to the council and sort of please let him go to this other school. And we got him changed. So all the school clothing labels that I'd carefully sewn in all had to be unpicked. It's like, absolutely, you know. And so it's like, OK, so that's not a difficult thing, but it could be
Lian (07:07)
my goodness.
You're like, why did I listen?
Caitlín Matthews (07:19)
the instinct that says to you, don't get on the next bus, get the next bus. And that saves you from an accident. So, But it's the things that people don't listen to and that instinct that says, take your umbrella, it's going to rain. We think that you're just gonna get wet, if it is not a big deal, but actually it's the same instinct that saves your life.
Lian (07:20)
Yes.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes, yeah. And again, such a practical and even survival level. Yeah, there isn't this I think we can see when we're talking about gifts of these nature, they're kind of airy fairy and almost, you know, like a bit like a nice to have not actually something fundamental to human well being again, even survival.
Caitlín Matthews (08:13)
Yes, indeed.
Lian (08:16)
There was a million different things I had going in my head then, like where to take this next?
Caitlín Matthews (08:19)
I'm sure it will go 20 ways. I mean we could go to the other end of this.
It's like you know what happens when people have this in spades. You know when people have what's called the second sight but actually in Gaelic is called Angahalla. It means the two seeings. It means you see what is here present with you but you also see what's superimposed upon it. Yeah so you have that sense of the what's here and what will be.
Lian (08:36)
Hmm.
I love that two C-ings.
Caitlín Matthews (08:48)
or what was, because you can also pick up things that have been as well.
Lian (08:53)
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (08:54)
So I've known two people in my life who've had that skill and they're not skills that they boast about. And this is the thing that most people think, oh, wouldn't it be nice to have this skill? Then I'd be able to put money on Newmarket at 130, know, know which horse is going to come in.
Lian (09:01)
Mm-hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (09:13)
But actually it doesn't work like that because for those people those things happen without their bidding. So they can just be going about their life. In fact, there's a quite famous Gaelic woman who's spoken about this and she says, you know, that I go out for the day and I bump into someone, like circumstances brought me up to speak with this person and they want me to do them a service from my scale.
Lian (09:20)
Hmm
Caitlín Matthews (09:42)
and I have to give it. But also she sees, so it's not convenient to her in any way, but she also sees things that she can't actually talk about to people. Like she sees that someone who she's just walked by in the street is going to die recently, you know, in the sort of next and the next sort of few days or weeks. So, you know, these gifts are not always convenient gifts and we only have to look at, you know,
Lian (09:44)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (10:11)
things like the Bible, if you look at Jonah and God says, no, I want you to go and prophesy in this place. And he said, well, you know, no thanks. And go somewhere else. He goes to the end of the earth. He goes from the Middle East to the pillars of Hercules. And in order to avoid him, it just doesn't work.
Lian (10:35)
Mm, yes, there is, there's no escaping. Yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (10:36)
The gift is with me, so it means you're to have to be doing it. And I think that's another problem where people don't obey their gift or pay attention to it, which doesn't serve them well either. And it means that their gift is not available for the general public, which it might be in service of. So there's all sorts of things around the possession of a gift and the small print on the contract.
Lian (10:46)
Hmm.
Hmm. The, what you were just saying there about that, being resistance to one's gifts is definitely something I can, relate to. And I think again, the challenge we have culturally, we don't really have a, a model for this. You know, we have outside of sort of films and books that sort of talk about it in a much more kind of fantastical way.
Caitlín Matthews (11:07)
Yes.
Lian (11:34)
Most of us have been raised in environment where we're not seeing people who have these kinds of gifts and using them. We're not guided to understand our own gifts and they can be, I mean, again, speaking personally, my own have been quite terrifying actually. And so it wasn't just a kind of, don't know, you know, how to use them. There was a real terror associated with aspects of my own. that have really taken time to come to terms with and understand and learn to use. Just, I had a memory come up as you were talking just now that I'd forgotten about. It hasn't been something particularly present for a long time, but this was many years ago. So my father died in 2012 and it was at some point in the years afterwards, Um, my mother-in-law is going to, it's one of those kind of medium nights where you have a medium at the front and you know, she'll speak to various people in the crowd. And so I went with my mother-in-law and another friend and my father seemingly came through, but was, it was, the whole thing was strange as in, I mean, he was quite a strange person. So we were kind of in keeping, which was making me think, I think he probably is there because only he would behave the way he was.
Caitlín Matthews (12:35)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
Lian (13:01)
where he was kind of like directing her and almost like saying, like she, it was clear that it was him. She'd sort of identified he belonged to me as it were, but then kept saying to her things like, no, no, no, go to another person, go to another person. And she was like, I'm really sorry about this, but he was, but he's been really like, he was, was discouraging, he's very charming, but he's being very kind of assertive and saying, no, no, it's fine, go to this person. And she was like, I've never had this before. And I was like, this is so him. And then,
Caitlín Matthews (13:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes. Yeah.
Yum, yum.
Yeah.
Lian (13:30)
it got to the point where I think she was feeling so bad about the fact that she sort of brought him kind of in, but then was not giving me anything. And he was just telling her to go to the other people. said, I don't normally do this, but I'm going to say, reach out to me afterwards. We'll have a one-to-one session because I feel bad that I'm just not giving you anything. So I was like, okay. And then in the break, I went to the loo and came back out and she was standing at the bar with my mother-in-law and friend. And I walked over and
Caitlín Matthews (13:37)
Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Lian (14:01)
thing, you know, just to say hello. And she said, he's saying to me, the reason he won't speak to me through, like won't speak to you through me, he's saying you can do this too. And I was just like, no, no, no, I can't, I can't. And she was like, well, he's kind of insistent that you can, and that's why he won't speak to you. And it was such a like really unwelcome
Caitlín Matthews (14:11)
Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.
Yeah, well.
yeah. Yeah.
Lian (14:29)
quite shocking, unwelcome, kind of also made sense. And it's taken me a long time. And even now it's like, you know, I feel like I'm sort of still very much in the work of a lifetime of coming to terms with that. But that came to mind as you were talking of like, aren't kind of culturally acceptable.
Caitlín Matthews (14:30)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, long, indeed. Yeah.
Lian (14:52)
gifts to have and can take a lot to even like acknowledge within ourselves. It wasn't like I knew that I could speak to him. I genuinely wasn't conscious to that.
Caitlín Matthews (14:58)
No, no.
But you were in a place where someone could recognise that. Yes, and that's what's so interesting because, I mean, if we just take the context of school, for example, I mean, it's very to a teacher, it's very clear that there are certain children in the class that do have gifts and they'll know that someone will say, finish the maths test within like four minutes, everyone else needs 20, you know, and.
Lian (15:05)
Hmm.
Mm, yes.
Caitlín Matthews (15:27)
because they're just sitting there twiddling their thumbs and getting bored and so they'll give them more and more sort of, know, books or difficult theorems to do or whatever, you know, just to keep them engaged because the one thing you never want to do is to bore children. So, but you have to give them, you know, the food they desire. But there was no one around in our youth to do that to us because it would have been very clear in… in say, you know, your community or society that if someone was good at, you know, like, children do when they chip in when adults are speaking and they will say, yeah, well, of course, you know, the buffalo are going to be coming from, you know, ⁓ from the West, you know, tomorrow. So we better get up early and get down there. And they would say, don't forget to take the special spear. What do you mean the special spear?
Lian (16:18)
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (16:20)
because they've already tuned into where those people are going. And so everyone around would have sorted out, oh, this is someone whom we could put to train with someone who's already doing this, which is what we do in sports and every other topic with children. So, you know, this is, it is a gift and we just happen to have grown up in a society that has completely and utterly put it aside.
Lian (16:26)
Mmm.
yes
Caitlín Matthews (16:49)
because Christianity doesn't do divination. It understood divination. If you read Clement of Alexandria and Gregory Nazianzen and all of those, they all understood what it was because people in their world, the classical world, which is the last time our culture had that, they knew that that's what people did and they just called it nonsense because there could only be one mandate, you know.
Lian (16:52)
Mmm.
Yes.
Caitlín Matthews (17:18)
One view of things. But of course, know, kings, rulers and so on, they all sent to the oracles to find out, you know, what should I do? And of course, you know, the, I mean, I suppose the famous one is when King Croesus, who sent to the Delphic oracle, he sent to all the oracles because he wanted to know which was the best one. And eventually went to the Delphic
Lian (17:45)
Shuffling for an oracle.
Caitlín Matthews (17:48)
In a light, you do shopping for an oracle.
So he sent a really difficult question and the Delphic oracle unfurled it for him. And then he thought, well, I'll ask them my question. And his question was a really bad one, which was one of the rules of divination is you always ask the right question rather than one that is of slightly dubious nature. So he said, should I make war on the Persians and with what army should I align myself? It's two questions for one.
Lian (18:15)
yes.
Caitlín Matthews (18:17)
And of course, the answer came back was, if you march against the Persians, you will destroy a great kingdom. Unfortunately, of course, it was his own. Because the way he answered the question was not very good. But people did, and they still do. mean, the state oracle of Ladakh and Nepal and Tibet.
Lian (18:27)
Hmm. yes. Yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (18:45)
You know, they all, those state oracles answer questions that the prime ministers of countries come and do. you can imagine parliament assembling to hear what the oracle was for the coming season, which we could sure do with now. And they're more listening seriously. And the oracles will say things like, know, plant barley much earlier next year and things like this.
Lian (19:02)
Mmm.
Yes, for sure.
Caitlín Matthews (19:14)
So these are like critical survival things for a whole country that people are still doing. But here, of course, it sounds funny to us if we'd have a state auger that we could listen to. We might save ourselves a lot of time, trouble, and money. Yeah.
Lian (19:15)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Yes, for sure.
Talk about divination, because of course the gifts that we're talking about aren't only going to show up in, let's say, formal divination.
But certainly it can be a way of honing those gifts and using those gifts in a, a way that really allows that clarity of message. As we can personally, it's been what has been the, I guess, biggest maybe surprise and
Caitlín Matthews (19:52)
Yes.
Lian (20:08)
difference in the last shamanic training I've done. I think I mentioned last time we were speaking, I've just come into the end of a year with a training with an indigenous Mongolian shaman. And the divination practice is right at the heart. I mean, it is, it's actually, I don't think you could even practice Mongolian shamanism without
Caitlín Matthews (20:15)
Yes.
Even
Yes, that is it.
No, impossible. Yeah.
Lian (20:36)
divinate, like it is so intrinsically linked.
Which wasn't the case, and again not making wrong any other forms, know, there's a place for so many different things and none of this is intended to say, you know, that's right, this is wrong. But that hadn't been my experience in the same way where it's like so baked in and so, let's say like scientific in its nature as well, you know, very precise.
Caitlín Matthews (21:00)
It's very exact science.
Lian (21:04)
And that's been a real learning for me personally to see that. And my senses, and I'd be interested in whether you share this view. I have a sense that's probably how, you know, not the same, but to a large extent that more kind of precise and, right at the heart of how we lived. I suspect that's actually true for us, you know, across all different cultures historically, that we had that right at the heart of our existence. But I'd love to hear your sense of that.
Caitlín Matthews (21:33)
Yes.
Yeah, I mean, I just think that everywhere you look in whatever part of any culture that the person who is the shaman, who can also be the diviner, whatever, whatever the medicine person is, whatever you call them, you know, that they always are always very, very close to those who are ruling because decisions need to be taken. And decisions that are going to affect a whole group of people, it's still, I'm mystified why we have short-term government decisions because they're not taken with any forethought for what comes after. They're always like, while we're in government, we'll do X.
Lian (22:26)
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (22:32)
So anciently, people never did that. I mean, they often had to take logistical decisions very quickly because of being attacked or whatever. But generally speaking, long-term decisions were taken with the aid of someone who could assist that so that everyone looked at it from every possible perspective. And so that not doing that.
Lian (22:56)
Hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (22:59)
just seems very short-sighted. It's like not putting your glasses on. Exactly. They have lots of funny adverts about, should have gone to Specsavers when someone tries to shave the sheep dog rather than the sheep, you know, but it seems to be about the stupidest.
Lian (23:03)
Hmm.
Talking of which, I managed to walk Specsavers twice. and very embarrassingly I managed to walk past it twice. There was a reason for that but I was just like how comical is this I've literally managed to walk past Specsavers twice I really need to go to Specsavers!
Caitlín Matthews (23:24)
Yep. Yep.
Exactly, but sometimes it really is as plain as the nose on your face and that most people wouldn't need a great diviner to find spec-savers. But yes, but very often, you know, it's like often the whole world can see a situation and of course the, you know, the metaphor of that is Hans Andersen's, emperor's new clothes. You know, we've seen the emperor has no clothes on for a very, very long time now.
Lian (23:38)
You
Mmm. Yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (23:57)
And here we are in a situation that the world is in at present. But yes, so I think, you know, these things are central to everyday life. The way we make decisions is based on a whole bunch of random things, sometimes because we want something, sometimes because we want to avoid something, and sometimes because we have to do something for the family or whatever. So there are a whole bunch of different
Lian (24:24)
Hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (24:27)
criteria by which we do that. And the way we make decisions is the feeling of rightness in us and how we come to truth. And so I think that basis of all divination is truth. And within the, you know, the Gaelic tradition, before anyone did any form of divination for, you know, the year to come or the season to come,
Lian (24:42)
Hmm
Caitlín Matthews (24:56)
they would always make a prayer about seeking the truth, you know, may it be, may I be seeing true vision, may I not be, you know, fooling myself, may I not be getting in the way, because getting yourself in the way of the divination is, you know, just ghastly because then, so there has to be a kind of, one has to come into a place of neutrality in order to do that, which is, of course, what all shamans do is that that shamanic neutrality.
Lian (25:12)
Yes.
Caitlín Matthews (25:26)
meaning I am not on one side or the other, but I am available for all. And therefore the spirits can talk to me because I kind of come with my own visa. But you can't do the work if you don't have that.
Lian (25:28)
Hmmmm
Hmm.
No. So coming to that, is certainly been something that I have journeyed a lot with. And I also see it show up a lot in our students. There is, as you say, that it's this, you know, if we're in, it, whatever, trying to say too many things at once.
Whatever way we are in that role of diviner, whether that is, you know, formally, we are the oracle or whether it's in the course of our work, it comes with a lot of responsibility and a lot of pitfalls. And just as you're saying, and I think to a large extent, this needs to be trained and practiced to come into that place of neutrality where we're available to receive the truth and it be kind of unadulterated, unfiltered by our own biases. Even then,
Caitlín Matthews (26:11)
Yes.
Yes.
Lian (26:37)
that responsibility of giving someone something that could have a huge impact is a lot to be with. And certainly I know for me over the years, I've wrestled with that kind of, firstly, what if I was misguided with all good intentions? What if I did receive that wrong or misunderstood?
Caitlín Matthews (27:01)
Yeah, yeah,
and two.
Lian (27:03)
and I've fooled myself and I've given them something that actually is unhelpful and untrue. Even if it is true and helpful, it's still a huge responsibility to bear, isn't it? Someone's going to potentially make big decisions based on that.
Caitlín Matthews (27:14)
Yeah. It's how it's received and how you give it. I think that there are lots of things in here. I mean, I just had an example this week. A friend of mine had had a sort of a strange experience. She wasn't sure what it was. She'd seen a man in a place where she was and reminded her of something she couldn't think what it was reminding her of. then...
we were sort of talking about, you know, was it something in her memory or was it something in ancestral memory perhaps because that happens too that you're often, you know, something is highlighted for you. But then she told a story about having had a very ancient ring and she took it to a psychic who was someone who was not necessarily a person of great responsibility. So she sort of said, could you tell me about my ring? So was like a psychometry thing. And the woman was saying, I think this man, you know, this man died. And she actually said to the psychic, so what relationship did I have to him if I was alive at the same time? And the psychic said, I think you killed him. Which is, my God, you know, which of course, as someone who does this work, you know.
Lian (28:09)
Mm-hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (28:31)
there are certain things that you would have asked the client first to see what their condition was before you even went to that place and said that. And a lot of people would have said nothing, especially in a quick exchange like that. That was part of it. you can't just sort of drop that into someone's box and expect them to go away happy. And that was a good example of how not to give a
Lian (28:37)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (29:00)
divination, but most things that happen in that responsibility department are about speaking the truth, which I think is very important, but speaking the truth in a manner that it can be received. When you're dealing with someone whose vulnerability you may not be aware of, and others you can say it right on.
Lian (29:18)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, I think that's interesting. Actually, yes, not necessarily you're even saying the whole truth. It's like, speak the truth. Yes, but not necessarily the whole truth. There's a sermon there. I noticed that when I'm working with someone, it's often clear that it's like I'm shown far more than they need to actually know. And there's there's things that they are going to be beneficial for them to know. And there's quite a lot often that
Caitlín Matthews (29:31)
but that's a matter of judgement. And the same as... Yeah.
Yes.
Lian (29:58)
it doesn't serve anyone for them to know these things. And that, I think there's experiences that comes with recognising, yeah, this isn't about me showing off how much I can tell them, it's about what actually is going to serve.
Caitlín Matthews (30:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, there's a wonderful question. My friend Diana Paxson, who works in Northern traditions in California, she's a very eminent diviner. She and I have done a lot of work together, and one of the rituals that she's sort of created has this wonderful question where people get to ask questions of the oracle.
And the oracle speaks whatever, you know, the answer to the question might be. And they often say, I see, because of course, when you're defining, you often see images or you have metaphors. So you convey it in that quite poetic way, which is, of course, a pre-linguistic way of understanding. And then at the end of that, the oracle may say something like, would you know more?
And the number of times I've, you know, we've done this and people have said, no, thank you. It's fine because then you give people the opportunity to say, my boundary is definitely going to be crossed if you tell me anymore. But a lot of people will also say, yes, please, I would know more. And then the oracle is then free to do it. So it's a very good way of exchange in that sense, but not everyone has that.
Lian (31:28)
Mmm.
Yes.
Caitlín Matthews (31:36)
In terms of the responsibility of giving, think that's part of it. But in terms of being ultimately responsible, I don't think one can be. That would be my... Yes, indeed. Yes.
Lian (31:42)
Mmm.
Hmm. Ultimately, it is an impersonal truth, isn't it? We can't be responsible for it, but
just as you say, the transmission of it, we can. So for anyone listening who perhaps, you know, recognises that
Caitlín Matthews (31:55)
yeah.
Lian (32:01)
they do have gifts of the kind that we're talking about, perhaps haven't yet, you know, found a way of honing them, practising them. What would yours, your advice be speaking directly to people that are kind of recognising, hmm, yeah, I think I'm, you know, back like me in that medium evening years ago, where I kind of got that very unwelcome, abrupt message.
Caitlín Matthews (32:05)
Yes.
Lian (32:27)
That wasn't the only one, but that was a particularly kind of, oh, God, I'm going to have to take this seriously. One way or another, they're kind of recognising, yes, I do have gifts of this kind. What would you suggest next?
Caitlín Matthews (32:37)
Well, I think first of all would be, you know, find someone whom you respect. So, I mean, look at, you know, look at the kind of books that people have written, if they're people who are teaching as well, you know, and you haven't met them before, or have a look online and, you know, see that because, oh my God, there's a lot of blag around this, which people really do not need to be involved with. And there are a lot of very, I mean, don't just go to the first person.
Lian (32:59)
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (33:05)
you know, you fall over. Really look, because I've had clients come to me who are the casualty of asking just the random person some piece of information. And some of the information given has been completely irresponsible. You know, I remember a woman who had been, I mean, her letter, she told me that she was serially being beaten up every weekend by
Lian (33:16)
Hmm.
Definitely.
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (33:35)
her partner and in the same letter she told me that she'd been to a psychic who said, you and your partner will have three wonderful children and go on and live and do da, da, da, da, da, you know, and I'm afraid I was very straight with her when she came because I said, you know, okay, so you've told me these two pieces of information and when you have the three beautiful children and they end up getting beaten up every weekend as well because he's had his wages and gone.
Lian (33:48)
My goodness.
Caitlín Matthews (34:04)
and had too much to drink, how will you be then? So, you know, I really, I had to put her into a state of responsibility to do that. So find someone who is responsible and who seems to know what they're talking about and see, you know, if you can get good advice and teaching on this, because there aren't very many people teaching.
Lian (34:12)
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (34:34)
this tradition. I'm one that's been doing it for a long time. But, you know, there are a few others out there who are people of responsibility too. And there are a lot of very good associations, mean, ones that give certification and also have a code of ethics, which is very important.
who actually teach divination of different kinds in an ordinary, like, either cards or runes or whatever kind of way, go and see them, because those are ways into this in a way which is more disciplined, as I'm sure you have found with your own training, that, you know, there are lots of tools for the job. There's you and nature, which is what I teach, which I think is a very primal way
Lian (35:11)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (35:29)
of learning. every year I do the Omen days which is a Breton method of working. But it's also goes all the way up the the northwest European coast to Scandinavia where you take a walk or you have an interaction with nature every day and every day of the 12 days of Christmas
each of those days corresponds to the month of the year to come. So like the first day of Christmas is January and the second day of Christmas is February and so on. So whatever you see significantly when asking that question then becomes your the oracle that gives you the message. And sometimes it's clear and sometimes it's not so clear. But there were various things. I there was one I can just talk about one of them that I did.
Lian (36:01)
mm. Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (36:25)
I think it was for April. And my way of doing it is I go to my back door, fasting and barefoot, and I close my eyes, I open the door, I put my hands on the lintels of the doors, and I open my eyes. And the first thing that I see or hear, because it can be something that's heard as well, is going to be whatever it is.
Lian (36:51)
Mm-hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (36:54)
Very often it's animal movement, like birds flying, this hither and yon. But that morning it was a very clear blue sky and there were two vapor trails that were coming together like this. So they were going to meet at some, you know, in the next few minutes in the sky, crossover, obviously on very different things. And that was very clear to me that that was about a project that we've got in the house that the money for the funding of that is going to appear in.
Lian (37:11)
Hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (37:23)
in that month, so it was nice and clear. But that's a very simple way of, you know, just stopping, asking the question, make sure your question's in a good place, please. But, you know, don't ask, know, shall I marry Bert or Fred kind of question. Don't ask a yes, no question because that's very confusing to be able to read. You know, ask a question that has a, know, show me what will result from X, you know, or whatever.
Lian (37:23)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Caitlín Matthews (37:53)
But and then, you know, be aware of whatever it is you're shown, because it may be instant and it might be a dog barking or as it was my famous one was I did a public one of these on my iPhone during lockdown where I asked my question and I thought, God, as soon as I'd said the question on the phone, I thought, I am so stupid because timing questions are the most difficult to answer. So I said. when will I be working again? When will I be, you know, and, and absolutely out of world rather than just from home. And, and the minute I asked the question, I opened my eyes, someone had got some work they were doing on their house and they were banging with a hammer and they banged eight times. Oh shit, I won't be working until August. Yes.
Lian (38:24)
Mm-hmm. Out in the world after COVID basically, Yeah.
Ha ha ha ha!
Caitlín Matthews (38:52)
And that was exactly the case. was exactly
Lian (38:52)
Did that turn out to be the case? It was, yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (38:56)
the case because we know lockdown went in and out like a bellows. Some days we were allowed out and others we, you know, it was like, no, you can't do Christmas this year and this kind of thing. So, so yes, it was, it was very, very exact. And at the same time, I had a blackbird land on the studio and it was like, okay, I have to do my practice from home.
Lian (39:00)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm, yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (39:20)
Yeah, I was so aware of that. that's because the Blackbird sang. And that's what I do in my work. I sing. So I sing for all my clients. So, yeah, it was very, very clear. And I filmed it. So it was it was a nice demonstration. Anyone can do this. Yes. And it doesn't have to be fine and wonderful things. can be pieces of rubbish flying in the wind. You know, it can be.
Lian (39:27)
Mm.
yes.
Hehehehehe
Caitlín Matthews (39:45)
bus cart arriving, you know, it could be your neighbour shouting at their children, if I say you do that one more time or whatever. All of those things, you know, those are all can all be oracles and the Greeks called them cladons, the things that you hear, you know, you're thinking, what am I going to do about my son? It's just so, you know, and you're wandering down the aisle of the supermarket and in the next aisle.
Lian (40:04)
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (40:12)
this couple are talking together and they give you the answer. Yes. So I think, you know, the whole of the universe is a connected place. And so, you know, that's a very good practice to do, not in a kind of, I'll just do this round from there whenever, but no, make the occasion of it and ask the question and say, now I'm asking the question. So I'm opening myself up to here and the universe responds.
Lian (40:16)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (40:40)
I've never known it not respond.
Lian (40:43)
So actually coming, I love what you've just said there, you know, the very reason divination even works is because we are in an internet connected universe. And it's kind of almost like being able to look through a little kind of peephole here that shows you something over here because it's all one ultimately. And as I was reflecting on that, I was also thinking about this from a...
You know, it's that roomy quota where, you know, not just the drop in the ocean with the ocean in the drop. And it's kind of everything's one. And we have these kind of unique fractals of consciousness, one might say, of each soul that we are. And certainly something that has become clear to me over the years is in order for us to live fully the life our soul came here for in this lifetime, it includes us using these gifts, know, learning these gifts, training these gifts and ultimately using these gifts. And again, if we have, we have kind of, you know, profound depth of these gifts, it is ultimately to be used in service. And it seems increasingly to me that this is vital again, for us to live fully the life that our soul came from. We need to do that. This isn't optional. We actually need to do this. Linked to that. as we're reflecting before we start recording, it feels as though, you know, the challenges that have been kind of ramping up over the last few years feel like they're kind of on, you know, hyper speed now. And then simultaneously, and I don't know if this is happening collectively, but I was saying to you, I've noticed my own gifts seem to be kind of you know, also ramping up the level of premonitions I've been having has been just, you know, beyond anything I've known previously. And I would love your thoughts, like, seems to me again, because these are ultimately survival level, these are for survival, as things become, you know, changing out there, our gifts will need to respond, they'll need to respond so that we are able to navigate these times. And so
Caitlín Matthews (42:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
circuit.
Lian (42:59)
Given the context we're in and what we've just been talking about, what's your sense as to what you can see about that? I mean, in some ways I'm asking you to be the oracle, but yeah, what do you see about everything I've just shared?
Caitlín Matthews (43:09)
Yeah, indeed.
You know, all I can say is I'll have to see because now you've asked the question, of course, you know, it comes up. you know, there always is within every time a possibility of turning back from a course of action. there are times when sitting on the fence does not do.
And I think, you know, this morning is the, you know, fear and appeasement are not cutting the mustard. And so it means we have to reposition ourselves in a different way. And so all the things that we thought of as secure, the alliances that we've had with different countries and so on, they are now in a flux. where the tide could turn if people make silly, irresponsible decisions which change the world. The world has to respond with good alliances because this is a time when we're making or breaking. It does suddenly feel as though we've been translated to the late 30s of the last century, suddenly.
You know, it's like, you know, do we take the air raid shelters now, which is what people began to do, and then it's, maybe we're not going to war after all, you know. But it's like, we're on a different readiness of how things are now. So I think our largest task is to not polarize and is not to...
Lian (44:52)
Mm.
Caitlín Matthews (45:07)
to feed the punch and judiness which is going on, that reactive part of every human being is not the part that can seek peace of any sort. so, you know, there was a Cherokee woman called Victoria Chipps and she said, you cannot have peace inside you until you seek it.
Lian (45:22)
you
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (45:38)
It's like peace has to start here. can't start. I can't expect someone else to bring peace if I haven't got peace here. And that, I think, is the most important thing that we have to do. What does peace consist of for me inside me? What is warring inside me? Let me deal with that. Because if we don't deal with that, that just spills out everywhere.
Lian (45:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (46:07)
We know human beings are blameful and resentful and that that can be turned to a different way. There's a lovely woman I know who's on social media and she's living in a part of America where a mixed marriage is not considered to be a good thing, if I say that. And she's in a mixed marriage. She's a very devout woman and
Lian (46:15)
yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (46:38)
You know, she just announced yesterday that she'd blocked someone for being outrageous. And I just thought, well, most of us would have blocked him some years ago by now. But, you know, she'd still been praying for him, I'm sure, and she will continue to do so. you know, that's a level of non-aggression that is, you know, the doing what is right in your soul and for your soul, because...
Lian (46:47)
Hehehehe
Hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (47:06)
Our soul is what sees. The imagination is the faculty of the soul. And that's the part of us that reaches out and can see and understand. So that's what we need to be doing.
Lian (47:12)
you
Yeah. Yes. Well, that feels, know, somewhat in some way, you know, these are in some ways dark times, but I think a hopeful message and a helpful message to leave people with that's the, that's the beauty. Isn't it? the, the gifts will be here to help us navigate this. Hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (47:46)
Yes, yeah, yeah.
We're not here to make it worse. That's probably the short story of that. Let's not make it worse, but let's by all means, you know, hold to what is true, because what is true for us is been true in all time. It hasn't changed, you know. The new book by Philip Pullman, The Book of Dust, is very interesting because it's about the imagination and
Lian (47:51)
No.
Mmm.
Caitlín Matthews (48:15)
I'm sort of halfway through it at the moment. But it is that sort of, know, that what is true gold is the imagination. And it's, that's what the soul sees. And if we can hold true to that and, you know, share what we understand from that together.
Lian (48:25)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (48:44)
That makes us a lot stronger and more resourceful and more helpful to the whole world. We know that our work often brings us very disturbed and troubled people. know, shamanically, we don't come with any, they're completely evil. None of us ever think that. We can see someone that's been led.
Lian (48:51)
Hmm.
Caitlín Matthews (49:10)
led astray by all manner of things and distracted by all kinds of terrors and circumstances that we can't imagine. But we still try and find balance for them. And we have to do that in every friendship that we have, in every relationship that we have, because that's where the peace lies.
Lian (49:26)
Hmm.
Yeah. beautiful. yeah, what a rich and I think timely, unexpectedly conversations it's been. Thank you.
Caitlín Matthews (49:47)
Well...
But let's honor our gifts. Yeah, that's the beginning of this. And it's the beginning of wisdom.
Lian (49:52)
Mmm, yeah.
Hmm, definitely. Speaking of which, I know you mentioned, I don't know if you've got any places left, but I know you're about to start a divination training. I don't know if you want to share a bit about that or other ways that people can find out more about you.
Caitlín Matthews (50:13)
It's very soon, it starts on the first to the fourth of February, so I don't think that this won't be done in that time. But yes, it's part of the ongoing training that I do with people. But I do have a book called The Art of Celtic Seership, which was based on the course that I've run for over 40 years now.
Lian (50:19)
it might not be, but yes.
Caitlín Matthews (50:40)
It's a book that's based on a course that I've actually orally taught, but it's about the seership tradition within the Celtic countries. it's very essentialised. It's quite short book, but that's quite a nice place to start for people. If they want to do some divination from nature, then it'll give you an idea of what's involved with that. But we haven't talked about
Lian (50:40)
wow.
Mmm.
wonderful.
Caitlín Matthews (51:08)
all sorts of things about who gives the gifts. And that's a whole other story another time, but that's in there as well.
Lian (51:13)
Mmm.
fantastic and where else can people find out more about you and your work?
Caitlín Matthews (51:23)
I have a website which is halloquest.org, O-R-G dot U-K. And I also write weekly on Sudstack under Caitlin Matthews, halloquest sanctuary. So people can find me there.
Lian (51:42)
Wonderful. Well, it's been a pleasure reconnecting with my pen pal. so good. until the next time, so much love.
Caitlín Matthews (51:46)
It's lovely to see you again. Thanks for the good questions.
Indeed.
Okay, thank you then, Lian. Bye.
Lian (51:58)
Thank you.
Lian (52:00)
What a wonderful episode. Here's what stayed with me from this conversation. The gifts that we now treat as peripheral were once the practical center of how communities survived and made decisions. Oracular capacity was not a spiritual luxury or fantasy or something that's a bit of fun, but a navigational necessity. And that has not changed. Only the culture around it has. Asking the right question, isn't a formality before divination begins, it is the work itself. A poorly formed question or one rooted in what we want to hear rather than what we need to know shapes everything that follows.
Receiving something true on behalf of another person carries its own responsibility. What is passed on and what is kept back matters as much as the accuracy of what is seen. The transmission is not neutral.
If you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for the links, they're at wildsovereignsoul.com/podcast/544 And as you heard me say earlier,if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and long for guidance, kinship and support, come join us in UNIO, the community for soul seekers. You can discover more and join us by hopping over to wildsovereignsoul.com slash UNIO now.
let's walk the path home together.
And if you're called to go even deeper on your wild sovereign soul path, come join us for the upcoming wild sovereign soul course, a live three month immersive initiatory journey into becoming a wild sovereign soul. Register your interest at wildsovereignsoul.com slash WSS.
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That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device, auto-magically, as soon as it's released. Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful. I'll catch you again next week. And until then, I'm sending you all my love and blessings as you walk your wild sovereign soul path.