The hidden secrets of men's desire and sexuality - Ian MacKenzie
Episode 546, released 30th April 2026.
Mythosomatic guide and filmmaker Ian MacKenzie names what men most long for sexually but rarely say aloud, why Eros is far larger than sex, and what a mature male erotic life truly looks and feels like.
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Or if you prefer to read: Scroll right down for the transcript
In this week’s show Lian is joined once again by Ian MacKenzie. Ian is a mythosomatic guide & filmmaker, as well as the founder of The Mythic Masculine, a platform dedicated to realigning masculinity with thriving life. For over 15 years, he has been tracking the global emergence of imaginal culture. From the desert of Burning Man to the heart of Occupy Wall St, he has sought and amplified the voices of visionaries, artists and activists who have been working toward planetary system change. He is the co-director of The Village of Lovers as well as Lost Nation Road, Amplify Her, and Sacred Economics.
In this episode, Lian and Ian start with Eros itself, not as a synonym for sex but as the life force that moves through creativity, land, encounter, and expression of any kind, and what it means when a man's only access to that energy runs through a single narrow channel. They look at what the manosphere is really responding to beneath the bravado, and why so much of what looks like sexual compulsion is closer to nervous system dysregulation seeking an outlet.
Ian also shares his own story, the marriage that eventually fell apart when they started exploring beyond it, the years in polyamory that followed, what he learned and what he got wrong, and where he's landed now. And then there's something he describes that happens in circle with men, when instead of the usual locker room storytelling they're asked to share a meaningful erotic experience, something that truly mattered to them, and what comes out of men when that door opens, the tenderness, the vulnerability, the stories that are nothing like what you'd expect, which, as Ian says, would probably surprise a lot of women.
Listen if you're a man who's never quite had the conversation you actually wanted to have about this, or a woman who suspects there's far more going on beneath the surface than most men let on.
We’d love to know what YOU think about this week’s show. Let’s carry on the conversation… please leave a comment below.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
Why so much of what looks like sexual compulsion in men is really nervous system dysregulation seeking an outlet
What happens when men are given permission to share what their erotic lives have genuinely meant to them, not what they're supposed to say
How the absence of the lover archetype turns a king into a tyrant, a warrior into a soldier, and a magician into a cold calculator
Resources and stuff spoken about:
Ian’s course The Deep Masculine
Ian’s substack
Register your interest for the upcoming Wild Sovereign Soul Pilgrimage here.
Join UNIO, The Community for Wild Sovereign Souls: This is for the old souls in this new world… Discover your kin & unite with your soul’s calling to truly live your myth.
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Thank you!
Lian & Jonathan
Episode Transcript:
Please note: We are a small team and not able to check through the transcript our software provides. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@bemythical.com.
Lian (00:00)
What would change if men could say honestly and without shame what they most long for erotically? Hello my beautiful soul seekers.
This week I'm joined once again by mythosomatic guide and filmmaker Ian McKenzie,
who names what men most long for sexually, but rarely say aloud, why Eros is far larger than just sex and what a mature male erotic life truly looks and feels like. Ian is the founder of the Mythic Masculine, a platform dedicated to realigning masculinity with thriving life.
For over 15 years, he's been tracking the global emergence of imaginal culture from the desert of Burning Man to the heart of Occupy Wall Street, seeking out and amplifying the voices of visionaries, artists, and activists working towards planetary system change. He's the co-director of The Village of Lovers, as well as Lost Nation Road, Amplify Her, and Sacred Economics.
So we start with Eros itself, not as a synonym for sex, but as the life force that moves through creativity, land, encounter, and expression of any kind. What it means when a man's only access to that energy runs through a single narrow channel, i.e. just sex, we look at what the Manosphere is really responding to beneath all of that bravado. And why so much of what looks like sexual compulsion?
is closer to nervous system dysregulation seeking an outlet. also shares some of his own story, his marriage that eventually fell apart when they started to explore beyond it, the years in polyamory that followed, what he learned and what he says he now got wrong and where he's landed. And then there's something he describes that happens in circles with men where instead of the usual locker room storytelling, they're asked to share a meaningful erotic experience, something that truly mattered to them. And then what comes out of the men when that door opens, Ian says, would probably surprise a lot of women. So listen, if you're the man who's never quite had the conversation you actually wanted to have about this, about your own erotic longings, or if you're a woman who suspects there's far more going on beneath the surface than most men let on.
But first, if you've just arrived here, welcome. If you've come back, welcome home. And if you keep finding yourself here without subscribing, your soul clearly knows what it's doing. Honour that call and go ahead and subscribe. It's challenging to live in this crazy modern world. Wild, sovereign soul is what we know will help.
And so if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path and your heart longs for guidance, kinship and support, come join us in UNIO, the community for soul seekers. UNIO is the living home for the wild, sovereign soul path where together we reclaim our wildness, actualise our sovereignty and awaken our souls. You can discover more and walk with us by hopping on over to wildsovereignsoul.com slash unio or click the link in the description.
And if you're called to go even deeper on your Wild Sovereign Soul Path, come join us for the upcoming Wild Sovereign Soul Pilgrimage, a three month immersive online group journey home to soul. We begin in May and enrollment opens very soon. But for now, you can register your interest at wildsovereignsoul.com slash pilgrimage.
And now back to this week's episode let's dive in.
Lian (03:48)
Hello Ian, welcome back to the show.
Ian MacKenzie (03:52)
Thanks for having me back.
Lian (03:54)
Oh, very welcome. And I am very much looking forward to this kind of part two, to our first conversation, although we are actually going to dive deep into, I guess, one of the rabbit holes we started to go down in our last conversation, and we're going to fully down there this time. So I'm looking forward to it.
Ian MacKenzie (04:16)
Me too.
Lian (04:18)
So as we began with our last episode, for many of us that are doing this kind of like deep soul work with ourselves, but also with others, often we look back and we can see the roots started way back, sometimes childhood, sometimes I guess, particularly with themes of sexuality in teenagehood.
And we can look back and go, okay. You know, that they were the experiences, the wounds that took me through all these different experiences and evolutions and healing to turn it into medicine that I'm now serving to others. So through that lens, when it comes to male sexuality, your relationship to Eros, What was that for you? What were those foundational experiences and I guess things that you learned about yourself and sex that you now see was that for you?
Ian MacKenzie (05:30)
Well, probably like most men, and mean any folk listening to this podcast, probably I'll assume grew up in Western culture or at least the kind of nuclear situation that many of us find ourselves in. And in particular for me, I grew up in the suburbs of Vancouver, Canada, and really like a, you know, sort of normal middle-class life.
Like many young men in that situation, I had zero mentorship or guidance around sexuality, know, eros, relationships. And again, it's only years later being able to look back and of course the journey I've been on, which we'll get into that poverty is just so clear. And again, the situation for so many young men and women, of course, similarly.
Lian (06:23)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (06:29)
But for me, I, you know, I had the birds and the bees talk with my dad, you know, you know, bless them and his willingness to just go over the basics. Like the one time that, we talked about it, which I was starting to date, this is around 15, 16. And, you know, it was very much like the, don't get an STD and don't get a girl pregnant was sort of the, the basis of the, the.
Lian (06:52)
It's not bad advice, but perhaps just a little bit incomplete.
Ian MacKenzie (07:00)
Exactly.
It's definitely good to keep in mind, but also in terms of like, okay, well, so how to approach this well. And with my mom, again, we never talked about sex or relationships ever. My mom, again, is very sweet. She's very loving and nurturing, but it's just not a conversation that we could have. And again, that often is just so edgy or embarrassing or uncomfortable for teens and their parents.
Lian (07:14)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (07:28)
for a reason because again in in the kind of nuclear bubbles that we're in I think I think parents You know the the advice of the day seems to be again like you've got to be able to talk to our kids about this kind of stuff I have a seven-year-old boy now and so I'm in those kinds of conversations, but I also recognise that it's actually not that suitable for parents to have these kind of in-depth conversations around sex and relationships and things because they're
Lian (07:30)
Mmm.
Ian MacKenzie (07:57)
they have the parental role in the kid's life. And so again, the value of having other trusted adults, mentors, elders, aunties, uncles, to have these kinds of conversations becomes actually really vital. Because again, it can be just, you know, embarrassing and difficult and challenging. So I'll just say for me, that was the situation, really no mentorship, no guidance. And so I just fumbled my way as, you know, young people do into relationships, into sex, and with so little fanfare of, or sort of acknowledgement of that threshold. You know, my first sexual experience was, you know, inebriated on a soccer trip where, you know, it was me and the guys and, you know, these women we met and she kind of took me to the back room and, you know, had some kind of erotic experience that I was sort of semi-coherent for. Which I was not in charge of it felt like actually, and, and I kind of forgot about it after that kind of thing. Like, wait, that, couldn't have been my first time is kind of what I told myself. I was like, no, that, cause the whole first time has a, you know, a mythic aura, even if we don't have a culture that honours that. But, and then I'm moving into dating and relationships and again, feeling very lost and, you know, unclear about how to do this well. And so I think that certainly.
Lian (08:59)
Mmm.
Ian MacKenzie (09:24)
set a tone for me that has I've carried through in terms of my own inquiry and ultimately leading to getting married at pretty young. I think I was 26 and my partner at the time who became my wife was 30. So a few years older and again, fumbling through marriage again, without any real mentorship guidance and all of the challenges that come up with that until, you know, after about five years in.
Lian (09:38)
Gosh.
Ian MacKenzie (09:53)
to the relationship, there was struggles around eroticism and sex and intimacy as there can be and a desire to explore beyond the script that we had with the monogamous, typical marriage. And so ultimately those explorations led to the dissolution of my marriage and kind of ejecting me out into the alternative realms of polyamory and kink and a whole underworld scene.
Which until prior to that, I would call it, I was very much in the, in the overworld at the upper world, which is again, a lot of folks who have not explored these other realms. They kind of stay in the upper world. and then it was an underworld exploration, which I learned a ton from and, you know, lot of positive, but also again, a lot of challenges showing up until finally coming to my experience at Tamera, which is what I believe we spoke to last time, the community in Portugal that has a very sort of rich tapestry of research and support for folks in the community and around this understanding of Eros. Eros as a life force, as the life principle that has intelligence, that is a vast reservoir of energy and needs the right containment, needs the right guidance and mentorship to steward well. And so again, just circling back now, being able to see what a kind of mature culture around these things looks like really highlighted, again, my own upbringing, which was the complete absence of that as it is for so many.
Lian (11:25)
Mmm.
Yes, gosh. Whilst, because of course a marriage involves another, please do, I guess, honour confidentiality where needed. I would love to know a little bit more if you're willing to share around.
Looking back now, what do you see was kind of, what was being shown? If what you described was happening from a sexual perspective within your marriage, going back to what you've just said, that kind of the intelligence of Eros, what was that telling you that you weren't able to hear then?
Ian MacKenzie (12:26)
Well, I think it's worth leaning on some of the work of Esther Perel, many folks probably know, but there's this, you know, it's understanding that there's two counter, or the two opposing needs that we have in sort of typical nuclear partnership or marriage. One is which we desire safety and kind of the rhythm of domestic life and all of that entails. But then we also desire we can desire novelty and exploration and edginess and that whole realm. And that those two in the modern narrative around relationships tend to, the expectation is that those have to coexist within the same relationship. And that sets up a tension and a paradox for most people, which is that, again, those energies are completely opposed to each other. So we have this domestic life trying to essentially compensate for also this desire for, yeah, novelty and connection and exploration. And so that was what was coming up, I think, for me and my wife at the time as well, that again, we were living this somewhat, you know, again, very normal, pretty stable life. And yet there was a desire to see like, what else is out there? Like what other possibilities, what other realms are there to explore just as a, kind of, I mean, equality of my nature to, to see what else is out there to upend any scripts of expectations and, and also try to do it in partnership also, like I didn't intend at the time to leave the partnership, but ultimately the explorations led to, I kind of destabilizing of the core. I would call it the core narrative of the relationship, which then led to the dissolution again, which is true for so many. And so again, I point at the navigation of this terrain and particularly Eros as again, this vital life force that requires a kind of a wider vessel of support in order to explore well. And again, when people who may, you know, who are listening and maybe say, yeah, you know, we want to try polyamory or we want to open up or, you know, explore kink or things, that's great. And it's always a, caveat there is that doing it alone or like doing it just with the partnership is kind of courting Pandora's box as I found.
Lian (14:31)
Mmm.
Ian MacKenzie (14:50)
because you really actually, it tends to go much better if you have actually other people that are around that can support, that can help process, that can give reflection, that can basically keep a kind of generative support structure around those kinds of navigations. And again, not many people have that, of course, and so they make do.
Lian (14:50)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, it really makes sense. So before we dive in further, I think it might be helpful if we define a few things through the lens of the work that you do and some of the ways that you talk about things might be different to how people have typically thought about them. I think in this conversation, maybe wrong, maybe it was our last conversation, we've talked of Eros.
My sense is you're not using that word exactly as a kind of synonym for sex and sexuality. But of course, there is a relationship between the two. Would you just share a little bit about what you are talking about when you're using these various words?
Ian MacKenzie (16:03)
My understanding, again, as it continues to evolve and a lot of this is through my time at Tamera, the community there, but also in other cosmologies of understanding, is really looking to Eros as primary life force. I mean, other language cultures, people call it Chi or Kundalini, right? These kinds of energies, mana, I believe in the Hawaiian culture.
And so it's just this understanding that this is energy that exists outside of us as individuals. Like this is actually the energy that propels life itself. And so we have the capacity to, to channel this energy, to cultivate this energy within us, and then harness it towards, for example, exploring the sexual act itself. but there's many other ways to express this energy through creativity. Right through tending land, through expression of any kind, these are all ways in which Eros can move through us. And so that to me is a really important distinction because again, when we have, we just understand it as primarily relating to sex itself, it's just a very narrow channel in which to understand. And also it creates a very kind of, I don't know, miserly understanding
I mean, I'll just say particularly for men who only have access to that kind of energy through sex, right? It creates a dependency. It creates a dependency dynamic on, if you're talking about straight men, on women to be that access point to Eros. And that's a problem obviously, because then again, it creates this kind of either dependency that can feel like a neediness for men, or it manifests as actually a desire to control and consume it.
Lian (17:37)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (18:00)
And then of course, we're not far away from the Epstein files and that whole phenomenon. If you understand it from a mythic lens, that it's actually a dependency loop around the predation of erotic energy is manifest in this case by the young feminine primarily.
Lian (18:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm. Yeah. And I don't want to spend too much time here because whilst I completely appreciate and agree with what you've just shared there, I do have a sense it's like, it's the sex aspect of Eros that we're going to focus on today, but it did feel important to just frame that first. But I would like to understand from your perspective.
As you said, there's, lots of different ways we can express. can channel, we can be the vessel for Eros. And yet it seems for most of us, sex will be almost certainly one of those. And for many, perhaps the primary one. do you think that's kind of, is that right. And when I say right, I guess I mean kind of natural versus conditioned. Is it a symptom of our times? Is it just how people are and therefore why not work with how we already are working? I would just love your sense as to kind of this focus that most people have on sex itself as being their primary expression of eros. Is there anything that's just worth saying about that before we dive into it?
Ian MacKenzie (19:43)
Maybe I haven't quite got the question. Do you want to try rephrasing?
Lian (19:45)
I'm going to put, I'm going to put it in a simpler way because I kind of maybe put too much nuance in it. Like one could say, okay, well now I know that perhaps I just don't even think about the sex part of it. I'll just pour it all into creativity. I don't think you're saying that's what everyone should do, but that's a kind of very blunt example of what I mean. It's like given many people sex is the part that's going to probably um, be really relevant and, uh, kind of call them. I just wonder your thoughts as in like, you know, is that just because that's how we are as human animals, that will be a kind of primary driver or is there something that we could really do with looking at and be like questioning is that, is that, should that be taking up as much space in my psyche and my life as it is? Does that make it more clear? It's a bit of a wide question. So it's probably a number of different ways you could.
Ian MacKenzie (20:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lian (20:44)
Look at that.
Ian MacKenzie (20:46)
Yeah, well, okay, I'm gonna relate it to, I think primarily to men, because I think this is also where I spend a lot of my wheelhouse. so I would like to draw a distinction though between a kind of primal drive, which is what, used a term from my colleague, Matt Sturm. So he believes that, well, mean, men and women have these two primal drives and they manifest in some nuance between men and women.
But in men, there's a primal drive for sex and violence, or you could just say like physical aggression. And it doesn't necessarily mean, again, negative, right? But there's this desire for a kind of, I would call it the energy of the red. You know, I often use the language of an Iron John, the myth, he talks about the red, white and the black, there's an all chemical sequence that appears in other stories. But it's this energy of the red. And red includes also this desire for sex, which, has the element of course of procreation, right, as part of it. But I think for a lot of men who I would say are compulsively bound to a kind of dependency on sex, that to me is a bit different. Like that's, I would call that that's the unconscious compulsion, which in many ways is not really about sex actually, because if we look at the dependency that a lot of men have on pornography, for example,
Lian (22:03)
Mm-hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (22:12)
pornography as a, you could call it like a pseudo, pseudo erotic fulfillment when I believe most of it is actually about sort of nervous system regulation. I think a lot of pornography addiction is actually about that, right? There's a sort of unbearable tension and compulsion that men operate under. And again, seek a kind of outlet for that. And also to feel
Lian (22:26)
Hmm.
Mmm.
A bit like, similar to, say, social media scrolling, a kind of almost just a way of numbing and regulating.
Ian MacKenzie (22:45)
Exactly. So that's one.
There's a phrase that Jessica Fern, she wrote the book, Polysecure. She uses the two distinctions between, she calls self-regulation, which is where, for example, you know, a man might feel that dysregulation and he might say, okay, I'm going to do some breath work. You know, I'm going to, I'm going to meditate. I'll do some breath work. I'm like, I'm going to intentionally practice something in order to bring back myself back to regulation. But a lot of men actually practice what she distinguishes as
Lian (23:02)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (23:15)
auto-regulation, which is basically do something else until I regulate. again, like scroll on social media or, you know, have another pint or look at pornography or, right? So it's not directly intentionally doing practice. It's actually like, I'll just distract myself with something. And so again, I would make the distinction.
Lian (23:21)
Hmm.
Mmm. Yeah.
And it's not even consciously that you're trying to regulate necessarily the whole thing's kind of on autopilot.
Ian MacKenzie (23:42)
Not at all. Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. And so when we talk again about sex as a primary expression of eros, again, I really want to make that distinction between intentional choice of stepping into, for example, an erotic encounter with a level of, again, intentionality and a kind of curiosity and mystery. So that's like a level of skillfulness versus a kind of compulsive need
Lian (23:54)
Mm-hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (24:11)
to just ejaculate or come into regulation or something. So those are very different ways of, I think, understanding it. So yes, humans have these like primary drives. And I think it's the quality of coming into self sovereignty is the ability to actually regulate these drives and choose intentional ways of expressing and cultivating this energy, which I tend to, when I speak about it with men, is around the qualities of the archetype of the lover.
If we talk about, of course, the four quadrants of the king, the warrior, the magician, the lover, to me, this is the realm of the lover.
Lian (24:46)
Yes. In fact, talking about drives and the sovereignty to kind of recognize that's going on, but not be at compulsion. You were talking earlier about the worker of Esther Perel and those kind of two needs. And then you were just talking about the drives of sex and violence. There's other theories that kind of get thrown around, like for example, hypergamy and then men's response to that or the impulse to spread seed, these different kind of theories that are said to underlie men's sexual expression. Is there anything that you would add to what we've looked at that you're like, there is something helpful to recognise that this is going to be a driver, not that men need to be at the mercy of it, but to be conscious of it so that they can be sovereign and responsible for it. Does that make sense?
Ian MacKenzie (25:49)
Well, I think it's worth saying that, again, those narratives that you spoke to, this idea, you men want to spread their seed, want to roam free, women want security and safety primarily, you know, to raise the offspring. I mean, there is some truth to that, I think, but they're also highly distorted through a patriarchal lens. And so again, I use the word patriarchy with some kind of, you know, caveats as well.
I find Rian Eisler's work, who wrote The Chalice and the Blade, she talks about the difference between domination, culture and partnership culture. But just using patriarchal lens for a second in this is that that behavior also has a certain, it kind of self reinforces certain ideas about men and women, but within a particular system. And so this is what I mean by in a nuclear society where primarily families are arranged or couples are arranged, separated from each other.
Lian (26:35)
Mm-hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (26:46)
versus, for example, village understanding, then certain kind of behaviors make a lot of sense. So for example, when a woman is financially dependent on a man in a hierarchical system of control and domination and capitalism, it makes a lot of sense that she would like a man to stick around and be a solid provider. And in many ways, the sort of undercurrent trade of that is access to her sexuality.
Lian (27:15)
Mm-hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (27:16)
Right, so there's a sort of, you know, I'll provide you with, you know, provision and safety and you'll provide me with sex. Like that's the often this kind of undercurrent or expectation. And that's understandable again, within a certain system, like why that would be the story. But when you sort of step into a different system, that changes quite a bit. So if you think about previous sort of pre-colonized goddess cultures,
Lian (27:25)
Mm-hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (27:43)
that I've done some research into and Renee Eisler who spoke to, there's this idea that in a patriarchal culture, women's sexual drive is actually quite low or only interested in procreation to then just secure the mate. Whereas in another system, the vastness of a woman's sexual tapestry and appetite is quite different actually. And this is what I learned also at Tamara when there wasn't like shame or stigma around women being overly promiscuous or being able to be authentic, it was quite different. So I just wanted to name that upfront to say a lot of the narratives that are present of like, oh, this is just the way it is, just men are like this and women are like this. They're just heavily distorted through whatever lens you're looking through. So it's worth saying.
Lian (28:20)
Hmm
Mm, yes.
Yes, of course the context may not create the underlying dries, but it certainly compels them and confirms them and keeps them in expression. With that said, are there any... Sorry, what are you about to say?
Ian MacKenzie (28:53)
Also, I'll say one other piece too, which is that, of course, there's the movie Fight Club, which I'm sure a lot of people have seen with Brad Pitt and Edward Norton. yeah, don't talk about Fight Club. But there's a really kind of powerful motif in there, again, which is this, I mean, really looking at the lens of masculinity through this lens of consumerist commodified society and its kind of bleak, meaningless, nihilistic,
Lian (29:05)
Don't talk about it.
Ian MacKenzie (29:27)
cosmology that it presents a lot of men with. I mean, men and women. And so in this particular drama, of course, the main character, sort of sleepwalks his way through this existence and begins to, again, start to want this kind of awakening, wants this kind of primal vitality to come online again. And he meets this character, Tyler Durden, who's like his exact opposite. And if you haven't seen it, won't spoil the ending. But he invites him into a kind of
Lian (29:31)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (29:57)
aggressive but meaningful structure of men and masculinity that suddenly provides a sense of aliveness again. And so I think at the end of the day, it's actually about what brings us alive, what invites us into an alive cosmology and that we can participate in it. And so again, when modern culture gives us so many pseudo rewards for participation and adherence, then a lot of men in particular feel that. And this is also what explains the Manosphere. Of course, the recent talk that came out inside the Manosphere, it shows, you lot of these younger men looking to these alpha males who have sort of, you know, broken free of the matrix and they're teaching these young men how to also do it. And there's truth to that, like that a lot of men feel this kind of aimless sense of like what's worth doing or that they're being exploited or fundamentally existing within a paradigm that is mostly meaningless and the Manosphere man invite them into, hey, you could be, you know, sovereign, you could be an alpha like me, you know, here's the path. And that gets rightly criticized by a lot of folks, especially now with this film that came out. But the underlying need though is actually what needs to be addressed for men. It's actually, you know, what is this meaningful life that we're actually inviting them into?
Lian (31:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, gosh, there's so much in what you've just said. You read my mind because I was thinking about the Manosphere just before you said it. was also loving what you just said there about Fight Club. And I think it's Clarissa Pinkola Estes says, there's a quote that popped into my mind where she says something like, tell the truth about your wound and hold out for the right medicine. You'll know it's the right medicine because it will make you your life stronger, you'll kind of come more alive, something like that. Definitely paraphrased. And that's such, obviously it takes us right back to Eros, this idea of being more alive. But when you look at things like the manosphere, you can see that it's not the right medicine for the wound. I watched that recent documentary with my 17 year old son. And it was, we've got really, really great close relationship where we can talk about practically everything. And it was so interesting watching it with him and having, you every now and again, we'd pause it and then have a conversation about what we've just seen and you know, say what we're seeing. And what was so evident to both of us, I mean, obviously he's got the, he is in that stage of life where the things they're talking about are the things that he is experiencing and facing and being called towards and all of that. So, you know, very much a customer of those types of men. And then he's also very open to sort of seeing beyond that and talking beyond that. And what was clear to both of us is as just you're saying, yes, the the problems of this world are, you know, they're probably quite correct in much of what they're, they're naming. The diagnosis is pretty spot on in some places and yet their answer for it, it just came away from it feeling quite sad for them. You know, I just constantly, I think perhaps being a mother of, you know, young man almost myself.
I was kind of, think, looking at them partly through a sort of mother's eyes and just feeling quite sad for them. you know, they don't look like they're alive and happy and fulfilled. And almost the more they say it, the more it's clear they're not. yeah, all of that just really struck me that it's as simple as you've just said. It's, you're not seeing this move into like more aliveness is actually just another, um, another way of existing that creates different outcomes, but I don't know if it's necessarily better outcomes.
Ian MacKenzie (34:23)
I'd say no, it's not. But I mean, I would say that you said the absence of aliveness. mean, there's certain aliveness, know, a certain incentive and, you know,
Lian (34:27)
Mm-hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (34:37)
reward or gain and getting the women, like there's these incentives that are put forth within that cosmology of meaning within the manosphere. And yet at the same time, I think of the undercurrent is anxiety. That's what I saw, I believe over and over, like the deep anxiety running through both these, you know, supposed alphas at the top and then these men that aspire to be them. Because in a hierarchy of domination, you're only one slip away from falling down the hierarchy.
Lian (34:50)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (35:06)
Right? And that's why the kind of, that's why Ryan Eisler calls it a culture of domination, right? Because there's a sort of subtle and overt ways of essentially asserting more control to try to be at the top. And, you get to be someone like Andrew Tate, who again, aspires or sort of expresses and blusters his way as if he's impenetrable and always a winner, you know, forever and ever. And yet when you really pay attention, there's actually a deep anxiety, I think running the show beneath him.
Lian (35:34)
Mmm.
Ian MacKenzie (35:36)
And so I think for these men, you say the diagnosis of, yes, like they're being invited into a kind of exploitative relationship, capitalism, yes. And the response to that tends to be within the Manosphere, the problem is women, or the problem is feminism, right? The problem is, you know, they wanna keep you weak, or they, or the Satanist at the top, or whoever it is, rather than seeing actually they're just doubling down on the very system that's exploiting them. They're just trying to get better at exploiting others as a way of, again, climbing the heap. And so again, I think the deep grief there is actually that there, where's that other cosmology of meaning and purpose that rightly is the role and the function of a healthy culture to gather these boys up and invite them into, generally through some kind of rite of passage, some kind of initiatory journey where they're basically brought into the mysteries of that understanding of that particular cultural way to say, hey, this is what it means to be a man in this culture. Like this is what you're in service to. This is the way of being in beauty. This is the way of serving land and the women and the grandmothers in the community. Intact cultures know that that's the moment that you're supposed to guide them into that. And of course, without those things, we have these pseudo kind of reactions to the absence. Again, now we go back to the cultural poverty thing. you know, not to leave the listener with a sense of like, oh, wow, so everything's terrible. It's not so much that, it's just, this is so much about why what I have tried to do with the myth of poetic tradition, which I believe through of course, Robert Bly offering the beautiful story of Iron John as a way of kind of beginning to resuscitate the cultural, cosmology and meaning that again, has been now a project undergone for at least two generations now. You know, I'd consider myself the third within that lineage. And others also are trying to do this as well, trying to resuscitate a meaningful cosmology to invite these men into.
Lian (37:50)
Mm. Yeah. So. gosh, I'm trying to back myself out of where I wanted to go, but I'm kind of looking at the time, realizing we don't have huge amounts more time. And so there's some places I feel like we must make sure we touch on before we close.
Whilst I totally appreciate you can't in this conversation cover all of the ground and initiations and the breadth and depth that you would if you were working with a man or with a group of men. So appreciate that. And we've got the, there's space that we've got right now. And so I was thinking about how I could ask you this. I'm going to go for something that might sound a little bit, so click baiting, painting.
It might be your answer is so good to this, we can use it as a clip. I was pondering from the, I was imagining you working with a group of men, taking them through the work that you do in say, for example, a deep masculine. And obviously me being a woman, I'm kind of on the outside to an extent of this conversation. Again, whilst I was talking to my 17 year old son, I'm not my 17 year old son. So I'm learning too. I'm learning what's going on for him and all of these
calls and pulls that are happening. And so I was thinking, one way of asking you this was to be, if a woman was a fly on the wall to the work that you do with men, what would most surprise, again, imagine it's me, what would most surprise me about what's going on for men, what's bringing them to the work with you and what's unfolding for them?
What would it be for me or for other women that would be like, wow, I had no idea that's what's going on for many men when it comes to their sexuality.
Ian MacKenzie (39:54)
I think a surprising thing would be the recognition that men have very rich inner lives, really rich, often tender, vulnerable qualities that relate to sexuality, know, even romance to love. Like these are the men that I tend to work with that, again, the projection that a lot of men receive
is that it's all about, you know, just sex and have sex with whatever, you know, man is thinking about sex all the time. And there's this kind of one dimensional understanding of men and sexuality and that again, yeah, they want to spread their seed or it's just sort of they're invulnerable and not interested in romance or just, you know, again, a lot of this, again, very, very thin understanding. And the men that I work with particular in these spaces when they actually feel like they have permission, to talk about these things, to share vulnerability and things that are meaningful to them or that were meaningful. Like one of the practices we actually do is we invite the men in to share what we call a kind of meaningful erotic experience in their lives. And we do this usually in pairs initially with the men. And so, and we say meaningful, we don't say like victory story.
Right. Because often men are seen to, you know, like the kind of locker room talk, which a lot of men again participate in, I think, because they don't really know any other way that often, the sort of locker room talk is this, it's like this bravado, right, kind of one upmanship. you know, I nailed this woman or objectified her or, know, in this kind of high-fiving, you know, climate. But I think a lot of men actually can be very uncomfortable with that or actually don't, again, don't know that there's other ways to do things.
And so when we invite men in these spaces to draw up some kind of meaningful encounter, I mean, it could be with nature as well, right? It doesn't have to be with another human, but we ask them to just share that story and the amount of like light that goes on in their eyes or the tenderness or the vulnerability, the beauty, the power of these stories that come. And then for another man to receive that story is deeply profound actually.
And then we usually have them swap as well. So then, you know, the other man can share a story of a sort of meaningful erotic encounter. And again, right. That distinction between sexual or erotic, can intermingle, but it could just be, yeah, again, experiencing a Vista, you know, on a hike that just moved them to tears and, you know, they, plunge themselves into the water and just feel the vitality in their skin. And like, that can be a meaningful erotic encounter for a man where there's this deep communion in union with nature, with the great goddess. Or it can be something, again, like a vulnerable sexual encounter where, maybe they thought they had to come with this bravado and performance and were met by maybe a woman in that moment of actually deep vulnerability and care that was much more meaningful than any kind of, you know, victory penetration or something. So again, this is the part I think a lot of women would actually be surprised by is that when men have the permission, the space,
Lian (42:50)
Mm.
Mmm.
Ian MacKenzie (43:17)
the ability, the encouragement to unfold, actually the depth and tenderness of their inner lives around this subject matter, it's pretty profound.
Lian (43:27)
Mmm, beautiful.
It's In some ways that hasn't surprised you. You've failed because it didn't surprise me. But I think only because our people, your people are probably quite similar. I'm, you know, I experienced men as having that rich in a life and that sort of sensitivity and tenderness, but I still feel, I was very moved by what you shared. So you haven't failed completely. I still enjoyed your answer. And I guess linked to that I guess there's different sort of degrees of consciousness that a man might this going on. So the question is something like what is it that you've seen that many men want sexually but are afraid to voice to ask for? And again I'm asking that going on the idea there's kind of mainstream culture out there where you could you know come up with some kind of sexual act or something so I'm asking it from a deeper place of the kind of
men that are going to be drawn to, even listen to this in the first place, if that makes sense. So a kind of deeper level of answer with more awareness. So I'll ask the question again now I've made that distinction. So what do you notice that many men really long for sexually that they are afraid to voice?
Ian MacKenzie (45:13)
I believe men desire to be accepted in in the authenticity, the truth of their desires of their fantasies or kinks or, know, any of these things that again is secondary, or I should say, doesn't mean anything is acted on. Right. And this is our I think it comes down to again, this kind of primal, primal desire, primal, primal longing.
Lian (45:35)
Mm-hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (45:43)
that a lot of men who I've grown up with, either, I mean, shame, which is quite common, right? This shame around sexuality, as I did as well, that there's a feeling of like, I have to hide my true desire because if I did, if we're talking about heterosexual relationships, you the woman would not be okay with that. She would reject me or judge me or shame me. That's not okay. And so a lot of men, of course, they sort of hide their like, fantasies and they because they're not allowed to be aired or Accepted within the relationship and by accepted again, I don't mean acted on they tend to go underground and again this is the draw to pornography and kinks and things that are kind of more in the shadows because They need an outlet often right either men will have to numb himself and say, know I don't experience these things these aren't real desires and so they kind of shut those parts away and then they lock up a certain degree of vitality, I think as well, or they express themselves in, I would say, less than positive ways where they become energy drains, right? And they seek this fantasy and this ethereal pseudo realm, right? Caroline Casey calls these kinds of things toxic mimics. And so I think for men, just to be able to be in a relationship where they're able to air the truth of desire, like, oh, you know, I'm really drawn to this kind of, you know, encounter or this scene or ended to have a partner that's just curious and like, okay, you know, hearing that, let's say the woman can say, well, you know, stuff comes up for me when I hear that I feel a bit of jealousy or envy or something, but it's like, but I accept that you have those desires, right? Just that can be extremely healing and it can actually open up a lot of sort of really a high erotic charge in a relationship because ultimately the best aphrodisiac in relationship is not, you know, handcuffs and
Lian (47:28)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (47:39)
lotion, it's actually authenticity to be able to feel accepted in what's true for us. And then from there, again, co-creating whatever the relationship container is or may want to evolve into, again, this is secondary thing. And so just having that, being accepted, being seen, still being loved, I think is really healing for a man.
Lian (48:03)
Hmm, yeah quite meta then. So what men most desire is to be able to have their desires.
Ian MacKenzie (48:13)
And to have them, yeah, to have them received, you know, to have them accepted without being shamed, without being judged, without being told that not okay. Right. And that becomes, it kind of activates the, the, the good boy dynamic, right. Of like, okay. You know, I've, I've made mom, you know, upset or mom shaming me. Like not that that is the case, but again, that's the hangover from the mother complex, which again is a whole other topic.
Lian (48:15)
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, gosh.
I'm going to ask you, this seems a little bit of a kind of, you know, last minute throw away question in a way, but I wonder whether listeners are almost, I can almost hear listeners in the future saying, why didn't she ask this? So I'm going to, a number of times you've spoken about the way that our modern sort of idea of relationships is monogamous marriages and not having
partners outside of that. Do you see that that typically isn't the context where most people are able to actually have this kind of full experience of Eros as in we need to come out of that kind of dynamic.
I suspect you aren't saying something quite as blunt as that, but I'm asking it in that way just to, for speed. But yes, do you see that there is only, we have to explore outside of that or is there other ways?
Ian MacKenzie (49:54)
Well, it's helpful to bring this up if any listeners feeling that maybe I was advocating that. And again, my time in the community of Tamara certainly influenced me. Tamara is a, they don't call themselves a polyamorous community. It's more that they don't really have any expectation of any certain kind of way of being, but they create the container for whatever exploration, right? That is true for the individual within the context of community. I myself though, again, In my story, I was in a monogamous marriage and ultimately we ended up exploring beyond the initial container, which led to the dissolution. And then I was in a polyamorous relationship for about five years, which again, I learned a lot from, made a lot of mistakes, but learned a lot. And then now my current partnership of eight years, of which we also share a young son, we are exclusive, which is actually a word I don't like using monogamous anymore, Jessica Fern, in her book, Polysecure, she kind of also speaks about this. Monogamous has a bit of a, I don't know, it's a kind of hangover from a certain paradigm versus exclusive, which is a current condition, right? Not like an identity, it's just a current condition. And so for us, we have walked that dance of what does it mean to maybe have authenticity or possibilities of exploring with others, but at the same time,
Lian (51:03)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (51:18)
What is the capacity of the kind of nervous system of each other in our relationship? What allows us to stay stable enough and, you know, still focus on parenting and live our lives? So all of these become intentional conversation points rather than a kind of fairy tale script. And so I think for couples who may be listening to this is that absolutely I'm not advocating to, you know, that everyone quote needs to open their relationship would be more anarchic.
Lian (51:35)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (51:45)
That can be true for a couple who may have become feeling quite stagnant or, you know, actually need to shift things in a key way. But again, without intentionality and often other support, other supporting that vessel, you know, counselor, therapist, or a committed community of people, you can really just open up a lot that you can't contain, right? As I found with my former marriage. And so then it just becomes about, how do you bring more authenticity and aliveness into your relationship? Without necessarily acting on these things because again, we live, so many of us live in a social context that has other kinds of consequences and financial obligations and all these things. So it would be irresponsible for me also to say everybody needs to be that way when again, it really is dependent. But it's again, relinquishing the idea that true love means I only, I'm attracted to my partner and I never think about
Lian (52:33)
Hmm.
Ian MacKenzie (52:43)
you know, possibly connecting with other people. Like those kind of fairy tale things, I think really need to die with adolescence to come into a more mature willingness to see the wholeness of your partner, like all the dimensions, not just the ones that, you know, they, they, that you approve of, I think is vital for any in-depth relationship.
Lian (52:55)
Hmm.
Yeah, I love the nuance that you shared there. I'm glad I asked, I wasn't going to and I was like, I have this sense that listeners are to be like, why didn't she ask that? So, before we close, sadly, we are off on time. Is there anything that you're like, you know what, it's really important that we just name this or just quickly kind of, this would put a bow on the conversation as it were.
Ian MacKenzie (53:30)
Well, I think that again, this was touched on briefly, but I see a lot of this work as the cultivation, the exploration of the archetype of the lover. And so the lover in this understanding is not just again, that which pertains to sex itself, but like we said, this connection to the pulse of life, to eros to any expression of beauty and vitality, dance, movement, art, culture. So this is also why I think for, I mean, least the work I do, particularly with men is, really this terrain. because without the lover, the other archetypal expressions tend to be detached, lacking their humanness, lacking their compassion, their warmth. The magician without the lover is, you know, a cold calculator. You know, I'm imagining the man sitting behind their computers and manipulating the financial markets and, you know, crypto and all that stuff, like very detached, but very consequential to lots of people and very abstract. And so without the lover, again, the danger is that they just become, you know, totally disembodied, which is the case for as many. Or the warrior without the lover, of course, becomes a soldier, becomes the one willing to commit atrocities and violence on behalf of, you know, an unjust king, just because it's like, hey, do what you're told, you know? And so we need warriors who are also connected to the lover. And of course the king.
Because the king without the lover is a tyrant on one hand, which we see in the sort of rise of the authoritarian governments, but also the other flip side is the impotent king, the ineffectual king, right? That's able to actually bring order and generativity to the land. And I think that's why the lover is so vital to bring the king into his rightful place of service, service to the people and service to the land. And wouldn't that be something if those were the kinds of sovereigns that we saw today.
Lian (55:30)
Hmm, very much so. And speaking of which, I know that you have ways of working with men to do that very work, which you've got to share where men can find about you, your work and what you've got coming up.
Ian MacKenzie (55:45)
Absolutely. So, I mean, everyone's invited to listen to the Mythic Masculine podcast, which is available off my website, on Substack, Spotify, where I have a lot of these kinds of conversations with a lot of folks over the last six years, actually. But particularly for men, I have an offering called the archetypal compass. And that is a way of, if you're unfamiliar with the archetypes, this is a way to enter the territory to get a quick diagnostic of your relationship into these different quadrants, how these energies may be expressed within you, which ones you might want to develop, and also sort of where are you at in your life? What scripts might you need to let go of to step more into your soul's calling? That's a beautiful way to begin. And then in terms of a longer offering, which is really the sort of the deep quest, as we call it, that's the deep masculine, which is also of course available from my site. And we have different cohorts that we run a couple of times a year. This is with my collaborator, Deus Forte. And when men are welcome, to join that, one of those if they really wanna get into this work and go through a deeper courtship, I think, of the mystery of their soul.
Lian (56:55)
Beautiful. Thank you so much and thank you. Really appreciate you and the work you're doing. So this conversation has really shown me how needed it is. So thank you.
Ian MacKenzie (57:11)
Thank you for the invitation.
Lian (57:13)
Mm, I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.
Ian MacKenzie (57:17)
Yeah, happy to.
Lian (57:21)
What a truly glorious episode. Here's what stayed with me from this conversation. So much of what looks like sexual compulsion in men is really their nervous system being dysregulated and seeking an outlet or a balm. The dependency on pornography, the compulsive scrolling, the need to come into regulation through something external. These are not generally, primarily about sex. They're about an unbearable tension with nowhere else to go. When men are given genuine permission to share what their erotic lives have meant to them, not the victory story, not the locker room version, something quite different emerges. The tenderness, the vulnerability, the beauty of what comes out when that door opens is, as Ian said, nothing like what most people, particularly women, might expect.
The lover archetype is not incidental to other expressions of mature masculinity. Without it, the king becomes a tyrant or an ineffectual ruler. The warrior becomes a soldier willing to commit atrocities on behalf of an unjust cause. And the magician becomes a cold calculator detached from consequence. The lover is what keeps the others human.
If you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for the links, they're at wildsovereignsoul.com slash podcast slash five, four, six. And as you heard me say earlier, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world, and you long for guidance, kinship and support, come join us in Unio, the community for soul seekers. You can discover more and join us by hopping on over to wildsovereignsoul.com slash Unio now. Let's walk the path home together. And if you're cool to go even deeper, on your Wild Sovereign Soul Path. Come join us for the upcoming Wild Sovereign Soul Pilgrimage, a three month immersive online group journey home to soul. You can register your interest at wildsovereignsoul.com slash pilgrimage. And as I said earlier, doors are just about to open to enrollment. We will be beginning the pilgrimage late May. We'll be confirming the date very soon.
And if you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, head on over to your podcasting app or platform of choice, including YouTube and hit that subscribe or follow button. That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device as soon as it comes out auto magically. Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful. I'll catch you again next week. And until then, I'm sending you all of my love and blessings as you walk your wild sovereign soul path.