What happened to the spiritual depth of the Three Principles? - Dicken Bettinger
Episode 551, released 4th June 26.
Lian and Three Principles teacher Dicken Bettinger explore how Sydney Banks' original message was rooted in the spiritual dimension of the mind, why that dimension kept getting lost in translation, and what it means to find peace by looking within rather than thinking your way there.
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Dicken Bettinger, Ed.D., received his doctorate in counseling psychology and has worked during his career as a licensed clinical psychologist. Dicken’s entire career has focused on psychological well-being. In 1986 he met Sydney Banks, who shared a profound new understanding of the human mind called the Three Principles that unifies our connection to a deeper intelligence called wisdom and our psychological nature. While living in Vermont, Dicken co-founded one of the first Three Principles training, counseling, and education centers. Later Dicken served as a senior staff at Pransky and Associates in La Conner, Washington for 16 years, where he developed and led corporate and university leadership trainings, team development, and cultural transformations.
In 2012 Dicken founded his private practice, 3 Principles Mentoring. He offers individual on-line mentoring, practitioner development, and advanced training programs. He enjoys leading group seminars in the US and Europe. Dicken serves on the Board of Directors of the Three Principles Global Community. He also values his time teaching war refugees from the Ukraine and Africa.
Dicken is the co-author of a book on the Three Principles called Coming Home: Uncovering the Foundations of Psychological Well-being and a forthcoming book, Life Can Be Easier Than You Think. Dicken has been happily married since 1969. He has two adult children and four adored grandchildren. He enjoys photography, hiking, canoeing, and exploring art and different cultures, and he values making new friends of all ages on his travels.
In this episode, Lian and Dicken return for a second conversation, this time looking honestly at what happened to the Three Principles teaching as it spread, why the spiritual dimension of Syd Banks' message kept getting reduced to cognitive psychology, and what gets lost when a living teaching hardens into catchphrases and community rules.
Dicken shares how Syd himself understood the Three Principles not as good ideas to live by but as the most fundamental qualities of infinite life energy, the intelligence, consciousness, and creative potential from which everything arises, and how that understanding was always meant to unify the psychological and the spiritual rather than replace one with the other.
Dicken explains what he noticed happening across the community over forty years, why the "do nothing" instruction became its own kind of command, how Lian's sense that individual soul was rarely spoken about connects to something Syd said consistently, and what shifts when someone stops thinking harder and starts listening for what comes through when the thinking settles
Listen if you have ever drifted away from a teaching or community that once meant a great deal to you and found yourself wondering whether it was the teaching itself, or just what it became reduced to.
We’d love to know what YOU think about this week’s show. Let’s carry on the conversation… please leave a comment below.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
Why reducing "thought creates feeling" to a psychological principle misses everything Syd Banks was actually pointing toward
How the "do nothing" teaching became a command, and what Syd really meant by looking in the right direction
What happens when someone stops trying to think their way to peace and begins to trust the knowing that lives beneath the thinking
Resources and stuff that we spoke about:
Visit Dicken’s website.
Join UNIO, The Community for Wild Sovereign Souls: This is for the old souls in this new world… Discover your kin & unite with your soul’s calling to truly live your myth.
Don’t want to miss a thing?
Subscribe (BTW, it’s absolutely FREE) to the show on your favourite platform or app by clicking the relevant button below… That way you’ll receive each episode automagically straight to your device as soon as it’s released!
Thank you!
Lian & Jonathan
Episode Transcript:
Please note: We are a small team and not able to check through the transcript our software provides. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@bemythical.com.
Lian (00:00)
What happens to a spiritual message when the people carrying it forward are working from a fraction of what was originally seen? Hello, my beautiful soul seekers.
This week I'm joined once again by Three Principles teacher Dicken Bettinger to explore what happened to the spiritual depth of the three principles as the teaching spread, why Syd Banks' original message kept getting reduced to psychology, and what gets lost when a living teaching hardens into catchphrases and community rules. Dicken has spent four decades working at the intersection of psychology and spiritual understanding.
He is the co-author of Coming Home, uncovering the foundations of psychological well-being, and is the founder of Three Principles Mentoring. We look honestly at what Syd himself understood the three principles to be, and how that understanding of something that was looking at infinite life, energy, intelligence, consciousness, and creative potential from which everything arises, how that became something that was psychologised and reduced to only psychology rather than his intention was to unify the psychological and spiritual. So we look at how that got lost. We got into what Dicken noticed happening across the community over 40 years, why that do nothing in quote marks instruction became a kind of command.
And we also looked at how my own sense that the individual soul was rarely spoken about, but actually connects back to something that Syd spoke about constantly. And then finally, we talked about what shifts when someone stops thinking harder and starts listening for what comes through when thinking settles. So listen if you've drifted away from a teaching or community.
That once really spoke to you and meant a great deal to you, and perhaps it was the three principles themselves. And now feel called to go back and see what was baby, what was bath water, what was lost, and what you might want to reclaim. But first, if you've just arrived here, welcome. If you come back, welcome home. And if you keep finding yourself here without subscribing, your soul clearly knows what it's doing. So honour that call and go ahead and subscribe.
It's challenging to live in this crazy modern world. Wild sovereign soul is what we know will help. And so if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path and your heart longs for guidance, kinship, and support, come join us in Unio, the community for soul seekers. UNIO is the living home for the wild sovereign soul path, where together we reclaim our wildness, actualise our sovereignty, and awaken our souls. You can discover more and walk with us by hopping over tonwildsovereignsoul.com slash unio or click the link in the description.
And now back to this week's episode, let's dive in.
Lian (03:10)
Hello, Dicken. Welcome back to the show.
Dicken Bettinger (03:14)
It's good to be back on with you, Lian Thank you.
Lian (03:16)
So no, no conversations for 10 years and then two in as many weeks.
So it's really good to be back again. So we were just reflecting on where we went in our last conversation. And then in the time since I've had the opportunity to think about what we spoke about. then as I said to you, I actually had a dream about recording this last night and in probably both the episode and in my dream, you said things that had me travel back in time and remember some of the things that first spoke to me. I began first hearing people talk about the principles, there was this sense of like, yes, that reminds me what that was. And it's been a long time. There was… a few years where I was really deeply immersed in that understanding and that world and that community. And then there's been more years since where I haven't been. And again, it wasn't, I said to you, it's like, I've kind of like, I've turned my back on, it wasn't like that. It wasn't a dramatic flouncing out the door. It was more a kind of, there were things that were no longer speaking to me. and other things that were calling me. And so the two combined kind of had me drift in all the different places I've drifted. Anyway, I was saying to you, having reconnected with you and heard you, it really did take me back to there being these kind of real feeling of truth in what I heard back then and what you were saying. And there were things that I was recalling. I was wondering really whether you… don't know whether in some ways some of the things that have happened over the years have perhaps deviated from what you saw was in Syd's original message or original intention. And so I wanted to just have a conversation with you about what I'd noticed, what other people have said to me, and then just get a sense from you. Because I feel like you're almost like other heart. There's something about you have this like purity of heart. That I was like, if I'm going to talk to anyone about it, will be you. So, and you were happy to do that. So let's go. So the question that occurred to me actually when we were talking last time was about the way the principles had almost become psychologised, which in some ways I think was perhaps made it a really sort of accessible, practical, sorry, my microphone seems a funny.
So in some ways it made it quite a sort of practical, accessible way to understand it. But I wonder in reflection whether it took people away, of had it be quite heady and it took people away from the feeling and the spiritual dimension of the principles. And I'd love to know your sense of that, whether you felt that this became almost like overly psychologised.
Dicken Bettinger (06:50)
That was my biggest fear, Lian, is that it would be reduced to form, be reduced to psychology. And that's Syd's original message, which is the connection between the spiritual and the psychological, that that would get lost. And to this day,
Lian (06:53)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dicken Bettinger (07:14)
That's my passion, is to make sure that the spiritual dimension doesn't get lost.
It's understandable that many people, when they were learning the principles, would grab on to the notion that thought creates feeling.
Lian (07:35)
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (07:36)
But if they're talking about thought content creating feeling content, that's cognitive psychology and has been around for a very long time and there's no spiritual dimension to it.
Lian (07:49)
Mmm.
Dicken Bettinger (07:51)
And the principles are not principles in the sense of being good ideas. I live my life by these principles. The way Syd used the word was the way it's also defined, which is that which is most fundamental. I have to remember, he died psychologically. He died.
Lian (07:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (08:18)
I asked him, did you have a near death experience? went into a tunnel of light. You felt blissful. You experienced the oneness of life. And then you came back. Did you have a near death experience? He says, no, I went all the way through that light to the other side.
I experienced the infinite nature of life and that everything is the same energy, whether in form or formless. And it's just a big dance of energy. So if you talk about that's which is most fundamental, you have to talk about that which is infinite. Right? You would have to. There can't be something more than or beyond. And so if you think of the
Lian (08:59)
Yeah.
Dicken Bettinger (09:07)
infinite field of life energy. Some people call it the quantum field. Some people call it the spiritual nature of life. It's infinite. And when Syd died, he realised there were three fundamental qualities to that nature, that there's an intelligence to that field, that everything that exists is created from that intelligent energy it knows how to create everything that exists and operate it. It created you and I, Lian and this biggest miracle. I mean we didn't even exist. And then there's two cells and then they have a party and then they multiply and multiply and they know how to divide into organs. and then they know how to work together as systems, respiratory system, reproductive system, nervous system, on and on. And then how to move and speak and learn and act and that's the intelligence of the infinite nature of life. It's also conscious. This is not new. this field itself is conscious energy. So that anything created has awareness. Anything, every cell, every cell of anything that's created has awareness, because it's made of conscious energy. And it's full of creative potential. It's constantly creating new and fresh. So it's three ways of talking about spirit. Three ways of talking about
Lian (11:00)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (11:02)
the infinite nature of life. And so that the principle of mind gives birth to everything that psychology has concerned itself about, brain function and thought content, feeling content and behaviour. That's form. But Syd says, isn't it interesting they've been talking for 200 years in psychology about what's already been created and they're not talking about what's creating. And he says, that's all I want to talk about. That's all I want to point people towards.
Lian (11:37)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (11:48)
this intelligent conscious, this wise conscious creative energy that knows what it's doing and it gives birth and when we become in harmony with that field of energy, we become more like that field. We become wiser. We become more conscious. We become more creative. And you put it all together, Syd says, that's what love is. It's a movement toward kindness in the universe. Albert Schweitzer said, the greatest question facing humanity is, is the universe friendly? Is it a wrathful God or is it a loving God?
Lian (12:36)
Mmm.
Dicken Bettinger (12:46)
And at some point we need to decide whether we're living in a friendly universe or whether it's...
Excuse me, fucked up top to bottom.
Lian (12:57)
Hehehehehe
Dicken Bettinger (13:01)
And the mystics are just ordinary people who have gone so far beyond the limitations of their conceptual mind that they've experienced their connection with this infinite field of spiritual energy. And it's changed their life. And it's made them more loving, more compassionate. They declare over and again, God is love.
The ultimate nature of life is oneness, as we're all connected and interconnected, as the Buddhists say. And so I don't want that to get lost. And it was getting lost because... And Syd told us, this will happen. People will... If they don't have insight and intuit their connection to something greater, they'll grab on to what's visible.
Lian (13:40)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (14:01)
like the Sufi story. Mu Nazrodin is underneath the lamp post and he's searching all over and his friend comes along and says, what are doing? He says, I lost my keys. And he says, I'll help you find them. And they looked and looked and looked me. And his friend said, we've looked everywhere. Are you sure you lost them here? And he said, no, I lost them over on the other side of the street, but it's dark over there. This is where the light is.
Lian (14:01)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (14:29)
And the intellect is where the light is because it's visible. can hear your thought content. So we said, Syd, how do people get so lost and lose sight of that we're spiritual beings born into a physical body? He said, it's the most natural thing in the world. People are spiritual beings born into a physical body. We open our eyes and we see
Lian (14:33)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (15:00)
objects. We see things. And then the intellect is built to conceptualize about whatever you look at. So this is why the wise says if you want to find truth, stop looking out, look within, look to the formless. And you don't have to intellectually understand it.
Lian (15:21)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (15:29)
to have wisdom bring you insight into your true nature, your soul. The spirit within is where we have greatest access to our infinite nature.
Lian (15:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dicken Bettinger (15:50)
And so it was, it's very hard for me, having spent so much time with Syd, see people hearing his message and then teaching thought content is creating your feeling and everything that Syd talked about was thrown away.
Lian (16:07)
Mm. It was my recollection. Again, this is going back 10, 12 years ago. It was almost like a catchphrase of thought creates your feeling that was well intended and I guess had some truth in it, but really wasn't inviting people into that spiritual experience or spiritual understanding that was really being pointed to and became actually something that got more and more in the way. And I used see arguments, know, you know, does it really create your feeling? But it's not thinking it's thought with a capital T and it's just, I just didn't see these sort of arguments like go on and on and on. Ironically, people caught up with the very thing they were talking about. And That was one of the main ones that I used to see that the arguments over this idea of thoughts create feelings, your thinking creates feelings.
Dicken Bettinger (17:13)
I know this is why I continued to teach and I've continued to teach and why I joined 3PGC is we're doing the best we can and we're just human to try and keep Syd's original message alive so it doesn't get reduced into either theory or form or technique.
Lian (17:25)
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (17:43)
because that's all on the outside. And SIDHSAO messages look within. Go beyond your senses to the quiet stillness that lies beyond your intellect. And it's only in that space that we can discover wisdom, a deeper intelligence, one that lifts our spirits and guides us. And I can't tell you.
Lian (17:43)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dicken Bettinger (18:13)
That's what changed my life. I went to hear Syd talk. I was a psychologist, but I wasn't as interested in psychology as I was in spirituality. I went to bookstores to buy all the books in the spiritual section. I studied with teachers who taught meditation from all the great traditions. That was my interest, and that's why I went to hear Syd was I heard there was a man who had
Lian (18:25)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (18:43)
had a spontaneous enlightenment experience. And I wanted to hear what he had to say. And the first day I went to him, I kept comparing his teaching with what I already knew and other teachings. So I'm in my intellect. So obviously I got nothing. I got nothing. Day two I went in and I gave up. I surrendered. I stopped trying to figure out what he was saying and comparing it to others. And I dropped so deeply in. It was like I had just… I stepped into another reality. And I had touched that on occasion after meditating for hours and hours and hours in three week long silent meditation retreats. But suddenly it was just ordinary and natural and available. And that we were just looking in the wrong place. We're looking where the light was. All of psychology.
Lian (19:48)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dicken Bettinger (19:59)
I could trace the history of psychology from William James forward that all of psychology focused on thought content. Even Freud was unconscious thought content, thought content, feeling content, all the existential humanistics, and then behaviorists. And they focused on content, not on there was no… interest in source. That's all I was interested in is because I had had experiences of touching. I think everybody as kids has unitive experiences at times.
Lian (20:37)
Hmm. Hmm. absolutely. Yes. It's, I was, my thought was, I wasn't thinking about what you just said. was thinking about the field of psychology and I was, I was pondering that, I don't know you'd agree. I feel that Carl Jung was pointing to something beyond the form and the content of thought in that his work really was about soul.
Dicken Bettinger (20:53)
Did you, Lian? Did you hear me?
Lian (21:22)
And I think he was journeying deeper and seeing more, but I think in a similar way to, I think because he started out as a psychologist or psychiatrist or, in that field in a similar way to Syd's message, I think it's easy to reduce it again to this kind of idea that it's just about
Dicken Bettinger (21:48)
Yes.
Lian (21:49)
thought and you know, it's I think in a similar way that the spiritual aspect is often missed.
Dicken Bettinger (21:51)
I know. Well, that always has happened. It's happened to every single original spiritual teaching. It's turned into a religion that has a limiting form. And then it turns into beliefs. So religion goes, here are what you have to believe to be part of this religion. And if you don't, you're other and you're out of it.
Lian (22:07)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (22:23)
And since all teaching is you have to go beyond all beliefs to discover truth because no truth can be ever reduced to a concept. The concept of love is such a reduction of the experience and truth of love. And love is more than just an experience, it's the truth of oneness.
Lian (22:27)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (22:50)
The experience of when we get a glimpse of oneness, we feel that connection, we feel that oneness, if you will.
Lian (23:00)
Hmm. So there's another thing that's come to mind that for me in those days where I started to feel drawn away from the principles. And again, I'm interested in your sense, how much of this was where the community was going and was speaking versus really Syd's teachings, but the
The sense I had was almost as though...
Dicken Bettinger (23:29)
as
Lian (23:36)
not just this kind of like nothing to do, but one almost shouldn't do that, whether that be, you know, yoga or even meditation, if one, for whatever reason, called, or other forms of spiritual practice. It felt as though there was this sense of it, I'm not going to say it's like it's outlawed. I'm not going to go as far as to that, but there was, there was this sort of sense of it's not seen as the right direction to be looking in. And so I'd love to know your sense of that because I think as souls, we are called in all kinds of explorations and directions in life. And I noticed that as my interests sort of took me into certain directions, which sometimes were more around the form, it felt as though that was almost like mutually exclusive from our three principles understanding. But I would love to know, because that could be, again, my experience. It could be just where the community was going. And it may not have been Syd's intention at all. So I'd love to, love to know your sense.
Dicken Bettinger (24:51)
I'll see if I, you know, I've lived in this conversation for a very long time, 40 years, 40 plus years.
It helps to have an understanding of levels of consciousness.
And that every person is operating from their level of consciousness, the degree to which they've woken up to truth.
You take any community, you're going to have people at all different levels of consciousness. And at lower levels of consciousness, there will be people who only see form and only point toward form.
Lian (25:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (25:40)
And there will be people within that same community who point toward the oneness with spiritual reality. So it's hard to say there's a single voice for a community.
Lian (25:57)
Hmm, for sure.
Dicken Bettinger (25:59)
But people hear, I mean, it would horrify me Lian, when I would hear people say, went to a 3P practitioner and they told me I couldn't do this and I have to do this. And I've never done that. Syd never did that. He didn't tell people how to live their lives. That's completely up to them. None of my friends are telling people, you can't do this, you can't do that.
Lian (26:19)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (26:31)
This is always, this happens in every single spiritual community.
I've witnessed that in other spiritual communities, same thing. People are living at different levels of consciousness, so everybody has basically a message that's the best they can see, given where they are in their understanding. And it's innocent. It's not bad. So this is why I would tell people, don't just watch my videos, watch Syd, listen to Syd.
Lian (26:41)
Mm, for sure.
Mm-mm.
Dicken Bettinger (27:06)
He's operating at such a higher level of understanding than I am. and then see what hits you, then see what makes sense, then trust your own wisdom to guide you wherever you want to go.
Lian (27:17)
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (27:24)
I love meditation, but I heard something that helped me see I don't have to be wedded to a form of meditation because meditation is our natural state of mind. And that was a complete shift in my understanding. Now I still at times would, it would just make sense to me to sit and meditate. And I never told the client, don't meditate.
Lian (27:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (27:54)
I said if you hear something, every true meditation teacher will say at some point you evolve beyond the technique.
Lian (27:54)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dicken Bettinger (28:05)
Every single really good meditation teacher I found in any different tradition, they'll say at some point you leave the technique. You take the boat across the river and then you get off and you no longer need the boat. But I was as horrified as you that people were telling people
Lian (28:17)
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (28:33)
Don't do anything, do this, don't do this, all kinds of advice. I can't tell you how many talks about how I would say that's totally not what Syd thought. He would say, look in the right direction.
Lian (28:37)
That was another catchphrase actually at one point. was like do nothing, but it became a command.
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (28:55)
Look toward formless until your ego evaporates. And then ego does nothing because wisdom takes over. I started teaching, love letting wisdom have her way with me.
Lian (29:12)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (29:14)
I get out of the way and wisdom takes over. So in that sense, my ego is doing nothing because wisdom is living me. But there was so much misunderstanding because people would hear Syd say, look in the right direction and do nothing. And then they started teaching people do nothing. And Syd all the time would say, within, drop thought.
Lian (29:34)
Yes, the last part was the only part I remember.
Dicken Bettinger (29:40)
Don't hold on to negativity. Let it go. Go beyond your intellect. He was always giving people pointers toward where they would find what they're looking for.
Lian (29:53)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (29:56)
not as technique, but just don't be looking in your concepts. Don't be looking in where you're holding on to any idea, even spiritual ones. When I first learned this, I was holding on to lot of spiritual concepts.
Lian (30:12)
Hmm. Yes. It's so interesting, isn't it? How the ego kind of then grips onto that idea and the idea of being a spiritual practitioner or something. Yeah.
Dicken Bettinger (30:14)
And that caused this one.
Yes, yes, I did.I as much as anybody. And it was very, very humbling to me to begin to see that that created a sense of elitism. I'm right. You're not. I'm spiritual. You're not. I would tell my wife, you can't be spiritual unless you meditate.
Lian (30:28)
Mm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (30:48)
You have to read this book, you have to go to this program, you have to do this, you have to do that. And it was just my level of understanding at the time.
Lian (30:59)
Yeah, yeah. And innocent and well-intended made sense to you then. So touching back on what we began talking about in our last conversation, the notion of soul. And so by that I mean kind of individual soul. That again was one of the things that for me at the time,
Dicken Bettinger (31:22)
Okay.
Lian (31:28)
Again, none of this is me saying this is true. This was my experiences with various teachers in the community. There was very little.
Dicken Bettinger (31:39)
So.
Lian (31:45)
kind of focus or description or anything that would give one the sense that there is an individual soul that's also part of everything. And the one time I can remember someone talking about something akin to this was actually you on a webinar where if I recall correctly, you were talking about it from the
Dicken Bettinger (31:50)
And anything that we do, we want to start.
Lian (32:15)
using the metaphor of music. And you were saying everyone on this webinar is like a different note and has that same kind of, you know, quality of like being part of all of this, you know, incredible piece of music, this beauty. And yet each note has its own unique quality. And you know, all these, this was probably again, a decade ago. And when you said that it stayed with me.
Dicken Bettinger (32:27)
in the sea.
Lian (32:45)
But that was, as far as I recall, the only time I heard someone talk about it as both, you know, this, this undivided consciousness and this unique quality, this beauty of each soul.
Dicken Bettinger (33:00)
That's why I tell people to listen to Syd he would all the time say Pure thought is a quiet mind pure consciousness is your soul Pure mind is the intelligence of the universe Coming through your soul and expressing itself uniquely
Lian (33:11)
Mmm.
Hmm.
As in the unique expression, but would you agree that that was, largely getting lost in, kind of translation when it became, you know, other teachers teaching, I'm not asking you to therefore make them wrong, but did you have you notice that there was, that wasn't, being, being spoken about in that, that way.
Dicken Bettinger (33:50)
Yes. No, I mean, I had the benefit of of not only listening to Syd, but being mentored by him for 23 years.
Lian (33:50)
I don't want to put you in awkward position just to say.
Mmm.
Dicken Bettinger (34:05)
And so when I would get lost in my beliefs and think I knew, he could help me see beyond the limitation of the beliefs I was holding on to.
Lian (34:19)
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (34:22)
And if people listen to any of Syd's talks, they'd hear him talk about soul. He very often would say pure consciousness or soul is just another word to try and describe something that no one can understand because it's completely invisible and formless. But we can experience the effects of that or the effects of
Lian (34:39)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (34:52)
dropping out of our intellectual conceptual world into a space within. These are all metaphors. You can only talk about spiritual reality through metaphors. Yes, yes, yes. And so Syd would
Lian (35:08)
Mm Yes. It's the old fingers pointing at the moon metaphor as well.
Dicken Bettinger (35:19)
every talk. But a lot of people who came into the principles said, I don't understand Syd or I don't want to listen to him, all right, I'm not interested, he's dead, I'm not interested in listening to him. And so they listened to teachers that were not necessarily at a very high level of consciousness. And then they thought that's what the principles were, and it's not at all. It's not at all.
Lian (35:41)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dicken Bettinger (35:48)
That's not at all what Syd thought. He would have been horrified. And he was horrified with us too, because we did the same thing. We would grab onto concepts about consciousness or spirituality and think we knew it. Say, I get thought, Syd. And he'd be horrified. It's like saying, I get God. What else is there?
Lian (36:03)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (36:14)
Because he'd say divine thought, divine consciousness, meaning infinite.
Lian (36:19)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (36:20)
meaning the whole field of being in which we exist. And he'd say, don't even listen to the words, it's not in the words. Mind, conscious and thought are just words made up. He used those words because he wanted to connect the psychological to the spiritual. That was his gift to humanity. See, for me, there were two different worlds.
Lian (36:43)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (36:47)
I studied psychology and it was separate and different. It was about form. I studied spirituality. It's about the formless, but they never came together. So I was a neurotic meditative mess. The world makes me feel stressed, but I can meditate for two hours and find my peace of mind until my kids yell again.
Lian (36:56)
Mm-hmm.
that knew a lot about the humour minds.
Dicken Bettinger (37:12)
You see, I didn't see the connection. And that was his gift, was helping bring those two worlds together as one.
Lian (37:18)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (37:27)
In psychology, it was about thinking about something that had happened that was unpleasant. So you're grabbing onto thought and holding on to it and focusing on it and thinking about it. That was therapy. And in meditation, you let go of all thoughts. So there were two completely different programs. And I kept trying to find a way of bringing those two together because I enjoyed helping people have an easier time alive and I love my meditation, but it was so hard to bring those. They were the opposite. One says drop thought and the other says pick up negative memory and think about it. The opposite. then. Yes, still content. Yeah, still content.
Lian (38:08)
Hmm.
Hmm. Or change it depending on the kind of therapy. It's like not that thought this one instead. Hmm. Yeah.
Dicken Bettinger (38:29)
It's very humbling and to be part of a community.
You want to do your best to listen to someone who's living a beautiful, loving, conscious life.
and when you're with them you discover something deeper and truer about your true self
Lian (39:00)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (39:02)
And if that were the criteria, you could easily be part of a community where many people were starting off at lower levels of understanding and you wouldn't be enticed by their passion about their beliefs and their doings. You wouldn't be enticed.
Lian (39:22)
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (39:27)
But that's the challenge for anybody who's part of a spiritual community.
Lian (39:35)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So coming to...
Dicken Bettinger (39:37)
Yeah.
Lian (39:43)
The work you do now and the teaching you do now, the mentoring you do now in taking into account everything you've seen over all those decades of work you've done, which is a lot. And then looking at the challenges we face in the changes that have happened just even in the last couple of years, kind of,
Dicken Bettinger (40:04)
So, thank you.
Lian (40:12)
In the world. I'd love to hear your sense as to
Dicken Bettinger (40:15)
and your son.
Lian (40:21)
Why, why you still feel that the principles offers something, an orientation, a direction for people in these times.
Dicken Bettinger (40:22)
I why do you still feel that there are some parts of your life that you still have to change?
Lian (40:35)
And it might include things that you've kind of
Dicken Bettinger (40:36)
I'm sure.
Lian (40:37)
recognised actually, you know, where we were 10 years ago, there's needed to be changes in the way that
Dicken Bettinger (40:39)
And I that's way to get people to be more inclusive about
Lian (40:43)
we teach.
Dicken Bettinger (40:43)
lives.
Lian (40:46)
that you feel that might be helpful to share here for again the benefit of me and people who have kind of been away from the community in that time.
Dicken Bettinger (40:57)
Well, there's no question that the teachers themselves, if they've continued to reflect on these principles through direct experiential realization, not through intellectual exploration, that the teachers themselves have evolved.
And that's a good thing for humanity. But to this day, I've never found anything that is more practical and more immediately helpful to people who are suffering. Because I've taken it into jails, and you can't just take any teaching into jail. They won't put up with anything that smacks of my theory, my beliefs, the right way.
Lian (41:49)
Mmm.
Dicken Bettinger (41:53)
I've taken this into jails, I've taken it into corporations, into communities that are suffering into, I've worked with refugees my whole career and taken it to people who are, I mean, talk about suffering and the conditions that they're living in. Horrific. And When people realise that holding thought of any kind creates suffering because it blocks us from the flow of love and wisdom, that alone can begin to help people just realise when they're caught up in thought and it becomes not a curse but a good thing because it's like a biofeedback to wake people back up out of thinking into the present moment, which is the doorway. That's our soul. That's the doorway to being open and receptive to this deeper intelligence, lifting our spirits and guiding us and watching people very quickly begin to, I mean,
Lian (42:46)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (43:14)
I used to worry for an hour easily about something. Think about it continually in a way that created constant anxiety. And when I learned the principles, I'd worry about it 10 minutes instead of an hour. I saved 50 minutes of worry throughout the day. That's a lot. It's like if you had a 100 pound pack and you put 60 % of the stones in your backpack down, you'd notice the difference. It's immediately practical. But for people, very few people have been told you're connected to the intelligence of the universe.
Lian (43:48)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (44:00)
You're as wise as anybody else. When your mind is open and receptive, you too will receive new and fresh energy that lifts your spirits and that brings you thinking that's helpful. Your dream last night, even during the sleep, when we're not caught up in our thinking while in our dreams, we open up to insights even in our dreams.
It's just always available to human beings.
Lian (44:34)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (44:36)
I go to bed every night dropping into soul and bathing in that feeling of spirit with no content.
Unbelievable the dreams I have.
I used to teach dream work. I studied with people who were original students in Zurich of Carl Jung. I read everything of Jung. I taught Jungian psychology. And to see how our level of consciousness affects our dreams. And if you change your level of consciousness, you have a whole different dream life.
Lian (45:20)
Hmm. It's, yeah.
Dicken Bettinger (45:20)
If you had the same level of consciousness, you could analyze your same dreams at that level forever.
Lian (45:25)
Mmm.
Dicken Bettinger (45:32)
very practical. We talk about not thought content, but how we can grab on to thought. We leave the present moment and no one can find well-being when they're not in the present moment. You can't think you're well-being. If I'm with my wife thinking, never ever will she feel love coming from
Lian (45:51)
Mm-hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (46:02)
Never. I can't think my way to love, I can't think my way to peace of mind. So every mystic talks about recognising the holding and letting it go.
Lian (46:13)
Yeah.
Dicken Bettinger (46:14)
And that's, to have that in the world of psychology now. Forget content.
You're either caught up in thought or you're fully present. Only when we're present can we access new and fresh thinking, creativity, more consciousness, more love, more awakeness.
And for people to begin to learn, when you're having difficulty, most people do more thinking. So they run to their intellect and rely on their intellect to try and figure stuff out. And to see people shift from relying on the intellect to as soon as you have difficulty to rely on wisdom means
You become totally you drop into your soul and become totally open and receptive to see to see what divine wisdom brings you that's responsive to the moment, given who you are and what you're dealing with. I want everybody to know that it's just like it's absolutely transformed my life and the lives of refugees and of.
Lian (47:10)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (47:34)
men and women in prison, and that we can listen for that small, still voice of knowing that often isn't even in the words, but in the knowing. So if I have a problem, and if I get quiet enough and tap into that deeper feeling of presence,
Lian (47:48)
Mm. Yeah.
Dicken Bettinger (47:59)
I do well in any situation, no matter how complicated. In the middle of family crises, I've touched that space and it's like another person shows up who knows what they're doing. Instead of the bad-nephew idiot who makes a mess of things, he takes it personally and reacts and puts gas on the fire.
Lian (48:12)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Yeah, absolutely. Well, unbelievably, we are up on time. is...
Dicken Bettinger (48:33)
my gosh. my gosh.
I didn't even look my gosh.
Lian (48:41)
I know it's flown by but I would love to give the opportunity is there anything that occurs to you that you feel would be helpful to say in closing that we haven't touched on?
Dicken Bettinger (48:58)
Well, I liked how often Syd would just say, this is so simple.
Look within. Beyond all that thinking, always hear. Always. Is the quiet.
Whatever metaphor helps you, drop into it, relax into it, step into it, be aware of it, feel it. There's a quiet. And in that quiet, if you become aware of the feeling of life energy in your body, there's a feeling of energy flowing before it goes to your intellect.
Lian (49:42)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (49:43)
Before you're into like messes with it and reduces it to concepts It's just the feeling of being the feeling of presence the feeling of being alive I've asked people in the worst states of mind ever are you alive and they stop and they become aware of that feeling and everything shifts
Lian (50:04)
Mmm.
Dicken Bettinger (50:05)
So listen for the feeling. And then in that quiet and in that feeling, you'll begin to become more more sensitized to the knowing that's there that guides you through life, it becomes more more foreground instead of background. It's that simple. That's what Syd says, don't listen to me, don't listen to my words. You can't get wisdom from me. Everything I'm saying is trying to point you toward beyond your thinking, there's a quiet in that quiet, there's a feeling and in that feeling there's a knowing. That's another way of talking about the three principles. But in a way that if people have the courage to look in that direction. Unbelievable what can... Then wisdom becomes the teacher. it can, or it said, or anybody else. And you don't follow anybody else. You don't take their advice. People give me all kinds of advice. I never listen to anybody's advice, especially my own. Right?
Lian (50:59)
Hmm.
Dicken Bettinger (51:17)
I want to hear what wisdom has to say, not what somebody's ideas they've already had.
So, look within, there's a quiet. Become familiar with that, immerse yourself in it, steep yourself in it, and then be aware of the feeling of presence. That's looking within rather than looking out, and then go even deeper into the knowing that comes through that quiet and feeling. Truth is always found, Syd would say, the state of no thought, in the feeling of love.
Lian (51:26)
Hmm.
Beautiful. I'm so pleased that we've had this conversation. feel there's a...
As I was saying, our last conversation in my dream had me recall what I felt when I first came across the principles and it's like you're sort of speaking to me in a way that I kind of like I'm recalling what was there for me and why it made a difference. So thank you so much. I really hope that's also done the same for listeners.
Dicken Bettinger (52:35)
Thank you, Lian. You're a delight. I love talking to you about this stuff. And I love your questions and your curiosity. It's wonderful.
Lian (52:39)
Hehehehehe
Oh, likewise. Yeah, it's just such a treat to be able to speak to you. And where can listeners find out more about you and the wonderful work you do?
Dicken Bettinger (52:58)
Well, I have a YouTube channel and I have a lot of talks that they've it's unbelievable how people have found those talks on my YouTube channel and the number of people that have been watching them is staggering. And I'm thrilled because I just want this message to get out and for people to
Lian (53:02)
didn't know that.
Dicken Bettinger (53:27)
get a glimpse of this for themselves. You know, I have a website, but less and less do I even use a website. people either email me at dicken.bettinger@gmail.com or they look at my website and then hopefully they'll go to Syd Bank's YouTube website.
Lian (53:30)
Mmm.
Dicken Bettinger (53:57)
He has a YouTube website that Shane Kennedy put together for him, who was the publisher of everything Syd did. And so all of the recorded talks are there free for anybody.
Lian (54:04)
I'll make sure we include Syd's teachings on the show notes as well. Yeah. It, I recall back in that original facilitator training I did, which is where I heard you. We, we sometimes would have Syd's recordings played to us. Like they were kind of, I think old style cassette recordings and
Dicken Bettinger (54:41)
Health, yeah.
Lian (54:43)
we would all just often lay down actually, recorded like laying down on the floor directly and just allowing his kind of voice to wash over us. there's a real nostalgia thinking about that and hearing his voice and his being directly in that way. So I'll make sure that we do include that in the show notes too.
Dicken Bettinger (55:05)
Great, thank you.
Lian (55:06)
Thank you so much, Dicken. So, good to speak to you.
Dicken Bettinger (55:09)
Thank you.
Lian (55:13)
What a fascinating conversation. It certainly was for me personally, but hopefully it was for you too. Here's three things that stayed with me from this conversation. Syd Banks never taught that thought content creates feeling content. That reduction belongs to cognitive psychology and it was always a fraction of what he was pointing towards.
The three principles where his attempt to name the most fundamental qualities of life itself, the intelligence, consciousness and creative potential that give rise to everything, including the psychological. Every spiritual teaching given enough time and enough people tends to harden into form and concepts. For example, that do nothing instruction is a great example.
A pointer towards stopping the reliance on intellect became in many hands, a rule about how to behave. The original was pointing beyond the concept, not towards a new one. When someone stops running to their intellect, the moment things get difficult and begins to trust what comes through in this stillness instead, something shifts that no amount of thinking could have produced.
That's really what Syd was pointing towards. It was always simpler and deeper than often the community that was built around it was managing to hold and point towards.
If you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for the links they're at wildsovereignsoul.com/podcast/551
And as you heard me say earlier, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and long for guidance, kinship and support, come join us in Unio, the community for soul seekers. You can find out more and walk with us by hopping on over to wildsovereignsoul.com slash Unio. Let's walk the path home together.
And if you don't want to miss our next week's episode, head on over to your podcasting app or platform of choice, including YouTube and hit that subscribe or follow button. That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device, also magically as soon as it's released.
Thank you so much for joining me. You've been wonderful. I'll catch you again next week. And until then, all my love and blessings as you walk your wild sovereign soul path.