The remarkable connection between the neurodivergent mind and soul purpose - Caroline Carey
Episode 554, released 24th June 2026.
Caroline Carey, soul cartographer, writer and author of The Neurodivergent Soul, joins Lian to explore what a late diagnosis actually gives you when you've already spent decades mapping your own soul, how neurodivergent wiring shapes a life's calling, and what it means to apprentice to your own story rather than to any framework imposed from outside.
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Drawing on intuitive, mindfulness, creativity and shamanic traditions, as well as her own original maps and frameworks, Caroline supports people in reconnecting with their inner wisdom, understanding their life patterns, and uncovering a deeper sense of purpose. Her work explores where soul meets story, helping others navigate life's transitions with greater authenticity, self-compassion, and meaning. Caroline is an advocate for neurodivergent people, a mother and a grandmother; she lives in Hastings, East Sussex. Her latest book is called The Neurodivergent Soul published 2026.
Caroline Carey has spent over thirty years guiding people, mostly women in the second half of life, through journeys of self-discovery using story, movement, shamanic tradition, and her own original frameworks.
In this episode, Lian and Caroline begin in childhood, with a nun who told a young Caroline that animals don't have souls, a conviction she spent the next six decades disproving, and a mare dying in an Irish field whose energy passed through her so powerfully it nearly knocked her over. These early moments seeded everything: the soul cartography, the archetypal maps, the three decades of tracking the patterns a life leaves behind. From there the conversation moves into what it actually means to discover you're autistic in your sixties, after the work is already built, the path already walked. Caroline describes her diagnosis as confirmation rather than revelation, something that made sense of a lifetime of sensory needs, particular ways of moving through the world, and a quality of perception she'd always known was different, without fundamentally changing who she already knew herself to be.
What unfolds from there is a conversation both Lian and Caroline are inside as much as observing: two neurodivergent women who found their way to soul work through that very wiring, exploring what the autistic mind perceives that others don't, why neurodivergent people so often end up on shamanic and spiritual paths, and whether the diagnosis deepens the soul work or whether the soul work was already doing that long before it had a name. They also get into masking, not as damage but as a creative act, what it was protecting, what it taught, and what it might be telling you about the situations you were masking for rather than the mask itself.
Listen if you're neurodivergent and have ever sensed or wondered whether the way your mind works and the work your soul is here to do are connected.
We’d love to know what YOU think about this week’s show. Let’s carry on the conversation… please leave a comment below.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
Why Caroline is glad she wasn't diagnosed until her sixties, and what she thinks an earlier label might have foreclosed
How the soul map works in practice, what it's tracking, and where the patterns tend to show up first
What happens when you stop treating the mask as a problem and start asking what it was protecting, and what it was teaching you the whole time
Resources and stuff that we spoke about:
Join UNIO, The Community for Wild Sovereign Souls: This is for the old souls in this new world… Discover your kin & unite with your soul’s calling to truly live your myth.
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Thank you!
Lian & Jonathan
Episode Transcript:
Please note: We are a small team and not able to check through the transcript our software provides. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@bemythical.com.
Lian Brook-Tyler (00:00)
Could the way your neurodivergent mind works and the soul work you're called to actually be the same thing? Hello, my beautiful soul seekers. This week I'm joined by Caroline Carey, a soul cartographer, writer, and author of the Neurodivergent Soul, to explore what a late diagnosis can give you when you've already spent decades mapping your own soul. How neurodivergent wiring can shape a life's calling.
And what it means to apprentice to your own story rather than to a framework imposed from outside. Caroline has spent over 30 years guiding people, mostly women in the second half of life, through journeys of self discovery, using story, movement, shamanic tradition, and her own original maps and frameworks.
work explores where soul meets story, helping others navigate life's transitions with greater authenticity and meaning. And her latest book, The Neurodivergent Soul, published in 2026, weaves her own experience of late diagnosis through everything she has built. We begin in Caroline's childhood with a nun who told young Caroline that animals don't have souls, a conviction she spent the next six decades disproving. And a mare dying in an Irish field whose energy passed through her so powerfully it nearly knocked her over. Those early moments seeded everything, the soul cartography, the archetypal maps, the three decades tracking the pattern that life shows us. From there we move into what it actually means to discover your autistic in your sixties after the work.
Has already been built, the path already walked. Caroline describes her diagnosis as a confirmation rather than a revelation, something that made sense of a lifetime of sensory needs, a particular way of moving through the world and understanding it, and a way of perceiving it that she'd always known was different, without fundamentally changing who she already knew herself to be.
We then go into a conversation that we're both inside, as much as observing, two neurodivergent women who found our way to soul work through that very wiring without even recognising that's what we were doing. exploring what the autistic mind perceives that perhaps others don't, why neurodivergent people so often end up on shamanic and spiritual paths.
And whether a diagnosis deepens the soul work or whether the soul work was already doing that long before we had a name for it. So listen if you're neurodivergent and ever sensed or wondered whether the way that your mind works and the work your soul is here to do are deeply connected.
And first, if you've just arrived here, welcome. If you've come back, welcome home. And if you keep finding yourself here without subscribing, your soul clearly knows what it's doing. Honor that call and go ahead and subscribe. It's challenging to live in this crazy modern world. World Sovereign Soul is what we know will help. And so if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path and your heart longs for guidance, kinship and support.
Come join us in Unio, the community for Wild Sovereign Souls. Unio is the living home for the Wild Sovereign Soul Path, where together we reclaim our wildness, actualise our sovereignty, and awaken our souls. You can discover more and walk with us by hopping over to wildsovereignsoul.com/unio or click the link in the description. Now back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.
Lian (03:39)
Hello, Caroline. Welcome to the show.
Caroline Carey (03:42)
Hi Lian nice to meet you.
Lian (03:44)
so good to have you here.
It's yes, it feels already like I'm talking to us kindred spirit, particularly starting the conversation. Talking about dogs is always my favourite way to get to know someone. So
Caroline Carey (03:58)
Yeah, meeting each other's dogs, very, very helpful.
Lian (04:05)
So we have got as we were talking about before we started recording, so much common ground. I was actually had this sort of visual of ⁓ you know, actual land that we we've journeyed through in our own way together. And my senses were going to go into some like really interesting places, perhaps off the beaten path, like almost like off the beaten path, which is already off the beaten path, which I'm delighted to be doing with you. But where I'd like to begin is journeying back to your childhood.
I've often noticed that those of us that are doing soul work of any kind can look back and really see the the kind of soul print of that right back in childhood. And so I'd love to begin with understanding what that was for you. How was your soul already showing you where you would end up going?
Caroline Carey (05:01)
Gosh, so clearly actually, that's a really interesting question because I look back on my life and things are just so obvious to me that why I would be on the path I'm on. And I think it's one of the reason I help other people find their soul journey through story, so through storytelling. So I had to really study my own story quite in depth and look at all those little nuances and experiences.
the challenges and the things that I loved, which I've done in writing books. But just having this incredible curiosity for who I am and what I've lived with. So it started, you know, I came into the world different. My mother was very, very pleased that she had a little girl. She had a boy already who was… 18 months older than me. And she was so happy to have this little girl. But what I realised is she put quite an expectation on this little girl who was going to be the perfect little girl and wear beautiful dresses and behave a certain way and get a good education and be very feminine. All these characteristics that she kind of wanted to bestow on me. I, you know, from the age of six months, I was having meltdowns, tantrums, she called them.
Lian (06:12)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (06:29)
She was having to lock me in my room just to take a break from me. She was, you know, really struggling with me and my sensory needs, my fascinations for certain things that she might not have approved of. And this literally did start at six months, you know, to the day almost, where these meltdowns would be so difficult for her to manage and the high energy that I had. And I wasn't that...
Lian (06:47)
Well
Caroline Carey (06:58)
little girl that she had this great expectation of. I wouldn't wear the clothes that she wanted me to wear. I just wouldn't do the things that she wanted me to do. it became quite challenging growing up. And even as a very tiny little girl, I had this image of my parents sitting on one pink cloud and I was sitting on the other pink cloud.
Lian (07:02)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (07:25)
And that's the image that I had in my mind that I was separate somehow. Now I wasn't separate, I was part of this family unit, but I can remember always being, what's the problem with Caroline now? You know, there's something wrong with Caroline. My brother and sister have since said that they believe they're very possibly neurodivergent. you know, we kind of know I wasn't the only one, but I obviously...
Lian (07:25)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (07:52)
displayed it in very different ways. So I can see all of that and I can also see that you know I had this fascination for the soul and that came about because my mother she used to get us to put our hand on the Bible she did with me anyway she thought I'd been lying she'd say put your hand on the Bible and tell me the truth and God will know if you're not if you're telling a lie and so I put my hand on the Bible and
Lian (07:55)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (08:20)
I can remember one occasion I did tell a bit of a lie. I said it wasn't me, basically. And, know, she if you're she obviously knew it was me. She always knew if I was lying. She, you know, she said, yeah, but so she knew and she's you know, your soul won't go to heaven. And so I had this notion then and I don't think I ever lied after that. I just I just I've never.
Lian (08:26)
Yeah.
Mothers do have that instinct, don't they?
Caroline Carey (08:49)
felt okay about telling a lie, you know, so I'd rather avoid saying anything rather than telling a lie. So I didn't lie, but I became fascinated. Well, what was this heaven place and what is the soul that's not going to go there if it's bad? And, you know, so I talked a lot about it and I have these, you know, pets. I was obsessed, not just dogs, but all kinds of animals when I was little, rabbits and guinea pigs and all the rest of it.
And of course, little things, little creatures, die, and you replace them, you bury them in the garden, all that kind of stuff. And so I would bury these little animals with help when they had died and say my prayers. And we were brought up with the church. And so I had a Christian faith at that time. But I used to think, well, I know they're going, they'll be all right. They're going to heaven because, you know, I know they've been good. Their soul will go to heaven. And so that's okay.
because my animals weren't bad, they didn't do anything naughty. that was my sort of, you know, I could feel okay about that, you know, and so go, okay, they're there. And I had this lovely connection to sort of this heavenly place where my little animals were running around and they were so free and they didn't have to live in cages anymore, all that sort of thing. later on I was sent to a convent where...
Lian (10:02)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (10:14)
I was Church of England growing up, but this was a Catholic convent. So the good Catholic girls went to one particular class for their scripture studies and the Church of England girls or any other denomination went over to Sister Mary Edwards who would give us her kind of interpretation of what we needed for our scripture lessons which usually involved how to not get pregnant from boys, not to kiss boys.
all that sort of thing she liked to teach us. She obviously assumed that we were likely to be very naughty as we weren't Catholic. But then we got into the subject of animals and she said, know, animals don't have souls, they don't go to heaven. And this horrified me. I was beside myself with it. And I remember at that moment, and I was pretty young, saying, I'm going to prove you wrong. Sister Mary Edwards, I am going to prove you wrong.
Lian (10:51)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (11:13)
I've just had this almost obsession, special interest if you like, we talk about in the neurodivergent world. My focus was on the soul from then on and I looked to people and I started to study people to look at what is their soul, what's going on for them and then start to see patterns in them and very particular soul journeys and repetitions.
Lian (11:24)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (11:40)
and which led me to be a soul cartographer as I've got older and sort of mapped out my own particular way of looking at life. you know, then later, like I had ponies for some of my time. And when my children were little, we had a couple of ponies and one was Ruby, who was a very old black mare. We were living in Ireland at the time.
and she aged and she aged and one day she died and she died in the field next to our home and I went to her, she was in her last breaths and her big head was on my lap and I was stroking her and you know obviously feeling incredibly sad and bereaved but knowing it was her time and then she lifted her head, this last moment, lifted her head and her big eyes rolled back and I saw the whites of her eyes and she took this great big breath and then her head just slumped on my lap and in that moment I got this energy that moved through me that really if her head hadn't been it would have knocked me over I would have just fallen. It was so strong and I remember thinking in that moment Sister Mary Edwards I'm now proving you to be wrong I know there is a soul I felt the soul moving through.
from her body through mine and wherever it needed to go. was such an incredible sensation and I felt that at other times when I assisted dying and being with my animals. So I'm very passionate about the soul, about the soul journey for each individual and how it manifests in the world and how we can literally find its particular journey and essence for ourselves which helps us to get to know our soul purpose. So that's how it evolved for me and I can see so many other little things you know things that happened that's my fascination.
Lian (13:37)
Mm-hmm.
Well, I wasn't expecting your reply to bring me to tears, but there it is. yeah, god goodness I could feel that moment of her soul moving through you just so tangibly. Wow, I I really I find people's answer to that question so fascinating because I see over and over again that
Caroline Carey (13:51)
Thanks.
Lian (14:10)
The hallmarks are always there in childhood, but yours is so and obviously partly because of the work you do, you've paid attention more than most. And so it's so specific, you know, that those moments and the even the word soul and the impact it had on you. just incredible. I love that so much. So I really
Caroline Carey (14:14)
it.
Lian (14:33)
I saw as soon as I saw you use that word soul or those words soul cartographer, I was like, I love that so much. What a gorgeous way of describing your work. And I loved as you said, you started to pay attention to the patterns you could see in people's life journey, and hence the idea of being able to map this. So I would love to hear.
What's your sense of those patterns that you've seen kind of like show up over and over again? Like my sense is the way I heard what you just said, it may have been misunderstanding. Almost like there is certain types of life path or l certain types of life journey that kind of take this kind of shape versus this kind of shape. so I'd love to know what it is that you've seen.
Caroline Carey (15:30)
I've had to start with myself. I wouldn't share or teach anything that I hadn't really studied in myself first. So it's really about looking at my journey and what I began to see was obviously some of the things that we absolutely know is that the things that we're drawn to as children are often some of the gifts that we hold. So the special interests, the fascinations we have, the hobbies, the interests, all of that can, if we're
Lian (15:33)
Mm-hmm.
Caroline Carey (15:59)
allowed to develop them can become something very potent and important in our lives. Obviously a lot of those things can get dismissed, not encouraged, education needs take over and having to get a proper job, all that kind of stuff that we know about. I didn't really have any of that in my life, I didn't do well in education and I In fact school was absolutely horrendous for me and I got pregnant at 16 so I went on to have a large family, three boys, three girls and lots of animals and that's how I created my little community.
Lian (16:42)
You proved the sister right and wrong.
Caroline Carey (16:47)
Yeah, know what she meant about not getting fragments. I don't think I was listening in that moment.
So yes, there we go. So yeah, that, yes, so I went through that journey myself and I think starting to see my own patterns and particular qualities, I got very fascinated with archetypes. And I was also very keen on, as a little girl, the qualities of the actress and acting things out. So I was, was...
Lian (17:13)
Hm.
Caroline Carey (17:26)
like a little playwright almost. was writing these scenarios for plays and playing them out with my cousins and the occasional friend. I didn't have many friends, they, or even with my animals, to know, like getting to know what archetypes were, even though I had no idea what the word meant or even the word existed. It was just, what are these particular qualities that I have, that other people have, that take them into particular areas of life?
And it was just an ongoing exploration until everything started to fit really clearly in place for me and the maps started to unfold. I started to see maps of the soul and I felt that there were, I suppose, particular archetypes that I felt drawn to working with. I loved the number 13. I grew up with this idea that 13 was really important. Again, no idea why.
It just, that's just the way it happened until I was much older and thought, right, 13 is quite a magical number. I didn't know it as a child, but I held a fascination for me. So I was tapping into something from a very young age all the time. And so once I had sort of got this map of archetypes that I felt very drawn to, I could start to see how useful they were for other people and that possibly
Lian (18:31)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (18:52)
this was part of the soul's journey, was to explore our innocence, archetype, to explore the spirit rebel I talk about and the artist and the artist, the creator within us and all the way to the elder, know, who we are as elders in the world. So, and our sovereign being and recognising that we are all born sovereign. We're all born perfect, beautiful, innocent beings, you know, no matter who we are.
And our job through life, our work through life is to reclaim that sovereignty. But it's knowing that it's always been there. But there's layers and layers of conditioning that are placed on us or that we take on throughout our life that needs to be unraveled. And so we find the story underneath that. But that's the work, that's the really deep work that we have to go on in order to find out what is beneath that. And then we use that to track certain patterns, repetitive behaviours or events, significant moments. And that's where we start to see the map unfolding. And so I literally have people drawing maps, creating maps, not in the sort of sense when you think of a map of, you know, how do I get from Hastings to London or what else, or to Scotland or whatever it is.
It's like, although those sorts of maps can be very useful. Well, are useful, aren't they? Incredibly useful. So, but it's like, what's the map of my journey? How has it been so far and what can I learn from it? And what can I, what do I need for it to continue in a slightly different way, possibly? So we do a lot of looking at our creation story, our birth story, even our conception story.
Lian (20:36)
Mm.
Mm.
Caroline Carey (20:49)
and lots of rites of passage throughout what has occurred throughout my life. And of course having six children, I started to observe their qualities and the maps of their soul and I knew what was the most important thing was that I didn't interfere with that. I wasn't the kind of Mum who said well you must do this and you must do that and you must get this kind of education and qualifications and get your job.
Lian (20:53)
Mm.
Mm.
Caroline Carey (21:16)
whatever, was, there was none of that. It was, you do what you, you follow what feels right for you. And that doesn't mean that you don't see lives. It doesn't mean that everything's been straightforward and simple, you know, but I don't believe that life is necessarily about, you know, better roses. It's like, you know, you have to go through the struggles in order to rebirth aspects of yourself and find out who you truly are.
Lian (21:24)
Mm.
Yeah, it's lovely to hear how you've parented your children. I was a little bit kind of like, couldn't you have had thirteen though, Caroline? Like complete joke. I stopped at two. So but there would have been a real magic to the story had you had thirteen. But I love that your knowing of and like allowing, you know, the
Caroline Carey (21:55)
Yeah.
Well... Yeah.
Lian (22:14)
The notion of tailos, the way the the acorn knows how to become an oak. Children know how to become, you know, their oak, And I love the wisdom you had, even, you know, back then to raise your children in that way, which I think is incredibly rare.
Caroline Carey (22:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, no, there's 11 grandchildren at the moment, so you never know, there might be...
Lian (22:36)
Wow. yes.
So coming back to this thread of neurodivergence, how you look back and you can see that was at least part of the difference that you had. When did that start to become more conscious? And when did that shift into a kind of I know looking at my own story, I now know that of course, you know, part of the difference, but also part of the struggles I had was being neurodivergent. But it was there were kind of phases in that. There was a coming into awareness of like, I do have these quite noticeable differences to other people. But it was much later on when I actually started to realise, these things have a name.
And then later again to getting a diagnosis. So I'd love to know how that was for you. At what points did you realise certain aspects?
Caroline Carey (23:36)
I suppose having my children, I knew there were some differences in them. We didn't go down the road of looking for labels or anything like that. With one of my daughters, she was clearly dyslexic and I knew there was something very different about her. And we did take her to a specialist from the advice of the school. And I took her along to him and He said, yes, clearly dyslexic. We know about that. We were living in Ireland at the time. And he said, we don't have much in the way of information around this sort of thing, but there is clearly more to this. And he said, have you heard of Asperger's? And I said, no, no idea what that is. And started to look into it a bit. We didn't have internet then. You couldn't go on Google and look up the word Asperger's.
happened to ask somebody else who had twin boys and he said, he was talking about his boys. said, what's that called? and he told me and you know, we got into a conversation about it, but I didn't want the labels. I wanted her to get a bit of help. She was in school at that time, not doing terribly well at all by any means. And yet she was incredibly bright, incredibly bright girl, but falling asleep in class. So we knew there was something a bit different going on. Well, it's taken her years and years until she was an adult and decided she wanted to look into that and she got herself a diagnosis and discovered the ADHD, autism, she also has cataplexy and so other neurological issues going on and narcolepsy. So, you know, this was something that we started to look into together. I started to support her, she's in her 30s and It was very interesting because she got the documents for neurodivergence and I was going through it with her and we're talking five, five or six years ago now. And I was, I was going through it with her and ticking these boxes and saying, I think this is many mothers' stories, parents' But that's me, but I do that. Doesn't everybody do that?
Lian (25:55)
Hehehehe
Ha ha ha
Caroline Carey (26:02)
She'd say, no, Mum everybody doesn't do that.
And she said, Mom, I think maybe you should go and get a diagnosis. Why don't you look into it? least get an assessment. Think about it. And I was very curious. And then I talked to somebody else and I was starting to consider it thinking, well, this does make sense, you know? And so my curiosity just took over and I thought, isn't this what I've always been looking at, the difference in some people? And my whole work was all about people who are different and usually the box type of people, more alternative minded.
Lian (26:38)
Ha ha ha.
Caroline Carey (26:42)
some danger things than most ⁓ behaving in certain ways quite isolated and I followed a shamanic path because i thought well this is like the shaman sitting on the hill or in the cave and like quite isolated from communities and doesn't quite fit in i thought there's a there's definitely a link there somewhere i was really sure of that and this also this very deep and open connection to something bigger this consciousness
Lian (26:43)
Ha ha ha.
Mm.
Caroline Carey (27:10)
It's not about religion, not about, I mean, yes, there's spirituality, but it's something, seeing something so much more than the material. And I was very conscious of that in myself. Just the way I saw things was very, very different. And I knew that. And so when this started to happen, and so I'm very, very late diagnosed, you know, in my 60s, getting a diagnosis.
Lian (27:40)
I had no idea it was that recent. I find that so fascinating that you'd spent so so long mapping all of these things and just hadn't made that last connection.
Caroline Carey (27:40)
Yeah
I haven't made that last connection. And I'm actually, write in my book about it, The Neurodivergent Soul, I write in it about how in many ways I'm glad I've got to this age and only just fighting it. Because I think if I had found out much earlier, or if I had been diagnosed as a child, my life would have taken a very different turn. I wouldn't be studying and exploring what I've been exploring. I would be going, neurodivergent, maybe I need medication.
Lian (28:02)
Hmm.
Mm.
Yes. Mm.
Caroline Carey (28:19)
I can't do things because of that or I can do things because of that. I don't know. But I feel like I've found my own way. And my mother used to say that to me. She used to sing the song, know, Frank Sinatra, I did it my way. used to sing this song to me because she could see that I always had to do things a very particular way. And if it had been blocked, then, yeah, maybe it...
Lian (28:23)
Hm.
Caroline Carey (28:46)
I wouldn't be doing the work I'm doing today and I'm really grateful. I know that I'm doing the work that I'm here to do. There is no doubt in my mind about that. I can see what's happened throughout my life that has led me on this path. Even the most challenging moments, even you know at 16 I was pregnant, I had to leave home, I ended up with a boyfriend I barely knew in the city.
Lian (28:55)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (29:12)
dwelling, which was, I grew up in the countryside. It was a very beautiful home, not without its challenges, but in the city life, completely alien to me with a blind boyfriend. He lost his sight for some years because of cataracts and they couldn't just remove them in those days. He was diabetic. I was nursing him while I was pregnant. So I was nursing this blind boy and he was only
Lian (29:39)
Goodness me.
Caroline Carey (29:42)
18, I was 16 and then 17, looking after him whilst looking after the innocent. So there was this innocent quality in both of us, bringing a little baby into the world, this innocent, pure little being, this little boy. And, you know, I was literally leading him, was leading the blind into these, through these dark places whilst taking care of the innocent.
Lian (29:53)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (30:11)
Now that was very traumatic for me. There was a lot of very, very difficult experiences tied up with that. you know, it was, I looked back and gosh, that was horrendous. But when I look back now and I really feel into the soul journey of that, can, I see that quality of leading the blind
Caroline Carey (30:35)
taking care of the innocent.
Lian (30:37)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (30:38)
So helping people with their innocent stories, unfolding those very gently, very calmly, very, you know, holding that very precious space for their inner child to learn about what it needs to learn and, you know, the truth that needs to be to come through that. But also because, and when I say blind, I say that just in that we're not always able to see. So sometimes we need somebody
Lian (31:04)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (31:07)
give us little pointers or a bit of direction or not that I tell people what to do or anything but just to help them unfold by the use of these maps to get to the truth, really get to truth, to bring you know bring more light into the shed more light on the story so they can see the really significant points and moments within their life and create their story, their real story from that not the victim's story.
Lian (31:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah. Gosh. No, you absolutely did. And I what I'd love to know then is having had the experience you you've had, as you say, not just a late diagnosis, but you know, l you know, we consider that to be in adulthood typically, not in eldership to you know, when we talk about late diagnosis, what what did that provide to you from that again? Cause I think that's quite an unusual
Caroline Carey (31:39)
I'll answer your question there.
Lian (32:07)
time of life to have a diagnosis, what did that give to you? What did it show you about you that changed things? and I guess linked to that, what has that then showed you about others and having that, whether it be just a name for it or a like formal diagnosis, what has that led you to you to I suppose a different way of asking that second question is
Caroline Carey (32:18)
Yeah.
Lian (32:36)
How has that shaped those maps differently to what they were before you had this notion?
Caroline Carey (32:42)
Yeah,
I don't think it's changed the work particularly, except I know my community a bit better now and feel I can connect more to people who are on the spectrum neurodivergent. I think one of the most important things for me with the assessment was that I was doing it mostly to help me understand my children and I can see some neurodiversity in each of them.
Lian (32:49)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Caroline Carey (33:12)
I, you know, on some level. And my grandchildren. And I thought, well, if I understand myself better, then I can be of more help or I can understand them better and help their parents possibly. So that was my, the main thing for me was to help with my family. I didn't feel like my work was going to particularly change, but I could see, I could see why.
Lian (33:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Caroline Carey (33:41)
a lot of the things I had done, why it was important for me to do this kind of work. could understand why I couldn't go into mainstream career type. I couldn't work in a, I couldn't do a five, nine to five job, can't even say it. I mean, I just, that world to me is really, really difficult for me to accommodate.
Lian (33:53)
Mm.
Let alone do it.
Caroline Carey (34:10)
my own needs within that environment, depending on what it would have been, but it just didn't happen for me. there was some, you my sensory issues, that's why I'm so particular about the clothes I wear and the food I eat and the knife and fork I use and the cup and all these different things that now absolutely make sense because I literally cannot bear the feel of certain things on my skin.
Lian (34:12)
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Caroline Carey (34:39)
Like I have an absolute aversion to certain smells, lights, certain environments. I can see all these little nuances and traits and go, oh, that's why. Oh, that's interesting. And it takes away the idea that, I ought to be able to do those things. Why can't I be able to do that? Why do I feel this way? I'm quite hypermobile, which means that I have to really look after certain
Lian (34:59)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (35:09)
areas of my body and look after myself in a different way and that they've related that now they can see the connection to you know to neurodiversity with hypermobility and Ehlers-Danlos syndrome those kind of things so I understand myself a lot better my bodily needs and I'm able to then say that to my husband to my family and yeah I
Lian (35:16)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Caroline Carey (35:36)
I do have this need and it's okay. It's normal for me. And I think also, you know, the science behind it all, it's helped me to understand that, yes, the mind is different. So this idea that I am different and there are other people who are different and there are different kinds of brains within society is also very interesting for me. I need to know the science of...
Lian (35:42)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Caroline Carey (36:02)
these things, not just think, well, we're different and that's that. It's like, no, actually, we really are. are, you know, cellularly and all of that, you know, there is a difference in the way our body processes things. So, and my processing is very different to many others, the way I have to do things, the way I'm very kinesthetic and I need to do something before I can't take in information very easily at all. So,
Lian (36:13)
Mm.
Mm.
Caroline Carey (36:32)
I have to do something and possibly quite a few times before I really learn anything about it or write things down or I find it very difficult to read books but I can write books, I can't read them. lots of different kinds of challenges but also just a very particular way of getting through life.
Lian (36:46)
Mm.
Mm. It's so much of what you shared, I it could be me talking about me. It's fascinating. and for me too, it was there was I remember as I was given the diagnosis, I had such a strange mix of feelings, which you're you sharing your story really brings that back to me. It was kind of like I wanted to kind of cry and laugh and just like
Caroline Carey (37:25)
Thank
Lian (37:25)
What was like, you know, all of the things all at once. And I remember it was like, this is like winning the weirdest lottery in the world. Like it kind of feels like, yay, also, what? but like you're saying, made so much sense of so many things that had been there all along. And you're like, how could I not make connected? Given that I spend all the time looking at patterns and making connections. How did I not make this connection?
And then it made so much sense that what you mentioned there about certain cutlery. My family, it's an ongoing thing. And my husband says, like, just get rid of the forks you don't like. And I'm like, Well, but they we would they're not really have many forks at all
Caroline Carey (38:06)
That's a thought, I've only thought of that one, that's a good idea.
Lian (38:10)
but yes, I love and so relate to so much what you shared. So the time is speeding on. I just realise we're coming up on time. I think we're gonna definitely have to come back and do a part two because I feel like I've barely scratched the surface of some of the things I wanted to discuss with you. but I was just pondering this I know an aspect of your work is the mandorla, and I think that in itself is
Caroline Carey (38:26)
So.
Lian (38:40)
actually, no, before I go there, I just wanted to share something with you that I think you'll love. You may have come across this, but if you haven't, you're gonna absolutely love this. So when you were saying earlier about how it seems that particular types of neurodivergence come with it, this kind of what you could say like an openness to spirit, to put put simply. And that's certainly been my own experience, but also what I've seen over and over and over again with the people that we work with.
And it was it I found out three things happened all at once. So I began training in shamanism at the same time as I had the diagnosis of being autistic, at the same time as I re read this research study that showed that the autistic brain hypermetabolized DMT, which is known as the spirit molecule. And so it's we have it's endogenous but DMT it's the DMT that's naturally in the human brain and it's not that autistic people have more of it it's because we hypermetabolize it and so it's like we're almost getting this extra natural dose of DMT within our system. And so I these three things happen within about the same week. And I was just like, my goodness.
Caroline Carey (40:01)
Hmm.
Lian (40:04)
That makes so much sense. So I don't know if you've ever come across that research before, but if you haven't, I thought you'd love it.
Caroline Carey (40:10)
Well, I do love it and it's kind of similar because I've always danced. From a very little girl I was dancing all the time and I'm a great mover, you know, I have to be moving just to stay sane. But I was dancing so much and I would dance myself to what I realised now was I was releasing D &T or, you know, serotonin, whatever it was, you know, and...
Lian (40:33)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (40:41)
dancing myself into this sort of hyper state where things would just open up for me and I would be seeing things that I wouldn't expect to see if I hadn't been dancing. was something that was opening up in me. I don't do that so much now because I have quite a natural state. seem to be able to tap into that more easily now without so much movement. But yeah, was that.
Lian (40:53)
Mm.
Mm.
Caroline Carey (41:10)
I would be going for it, I would be dancing in order to reach that state and then, well, everything would open up. So I never took drugs, I never drank or took drugs or anything because I couldn't handle it. I just, just, I just didn't
Lian (41:14)
Mm.
That was exactly the same for me. I was only talking I was talking about this yesterday.
It was like then I would really lose my mind. Like I'm barely hanging on as it is. Completely the same. so going back to what I was saying before I interrupted myself, this notion of the mandorla, and I think that in itself is
Caroline Carey (41:34)
Yeah, yeah. It's quite scary sometimes. Just keep going, keep going. Whoa!
Lian (41:54)
I would say a kind of almost like an autistic archetype in itself, this notion of being able to hold paradox and opposites in a way that just feels so natural. It feels like comes as part of the autistic experience. I notice over and over again there is this natural leaning to this kind of union of opposites and the holding of both. And so looking at this something quite meta about this question, looking at the mandorla as as kind of through the lens of neurodivergence, what do you see is is the mandorla of the neurodivergent experience, if that makes sense? Like what are the what are those opposites that we are kind of holding and unifying within our experience?
Caroline Carey (42:51)
It's a really interesting one because I've been with the mandorla since well actually since birth because you know I can when I've that's another part of my story that I've tracked that where are the polarities in my life and I can see so many of them but with the the the soul of the neurodivergent I think there is you know there's this well there's what one of the things is the fact that we we're very internal a lot of the time we have this own our own world in many ways that we live within and yet there might be another part that's saying I really need to be part of the world so that's what then causes the the masking or the trying to fit in. So there's a split there isn't there of needs but that's caused mostly by society I think I don't think that's necessarily our own personal journey I think we know where we need to be.
Lian (43:31)
Mm
Mm.
Caroline Carey (43:47)
You could look at the mandorla like the ADHD and the autism and how those link together. That's a possibility. But it's not something that I've really, I've explored it so much throughout my life and other people's journeys that I've never looked at it that closely from a neurodivergent perspective. I see it a lot used. I mean, it's used so much these days. These diagrams are quite
Lian (43:54)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (44:15)
mainstream now, they're very popular and so when I see them I sort go yeah here's another one, here's another one, without going like yeah but where does this really come from and it you know the mandorla itself it's this almond shape at the centre of these two circles, this overlap and for me it's simply about being present with what is, you know we see that on icons in iconology and
Lian (44:28)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (44:44)
angelic figures in, say, you know, Mary, Jesus, saints, wherever, and all sorts of places. We see it on the She-Lin-A-Gig, you know, it's that place of creation. It's like these two circles, this polarity is creating this shape, right, right at the centre. And it's the ability to be present with whatever is. So whatever is held within those two circles.
Lian (44:56)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (45:14)
is and the connection between the two creates this vibrancy, this light that is ⁓ deeply profound and shows up the essence of who we truly are. So when you see that shape around a saint it's like the light that is showing up the pure presence of that person just as they are. So for me the neurodivergent soul at the centre of that is I am perfectly unique
There is nothing wrong with me. I'm not... I don't hold a deficit, I don't hold a disorder. This is who I am and this is perfectly valid and necessary for society, for the world that we live in. We're supposed to be here. That's what it reminds me of. That's what it shows me. It's like polarity will show up exactly who you're meant to be. So there could be...
Lian (46:10)
Mm-hmm.
Caroline Carey (46:18)
this information and that information and all sorts of things going on and all these diagrams of all these words in them. Great. But what does it really mean? What does that really and honestly mean? Where does it come from? And I really recommend anyone using it to go back into, you know, really look at what is the significance of this.
Lian (46:27)
Hmm.
Mm.
Beautiful. We are technically up on time, but I just want to ask you one final question and say I think we need to then do a part two because I feel like we've just scratched the surface. I was pondering, I don't necessarily know this is the mandorla of the neurodivergent soul, but it just came to mind as as we were talking. So
Caroline Carey (46:53)
I can see it.
Lian (47:08)
I feel like I'd like to get your sense of this. Something that fascinates me is the idea of masking and how so many neurodivergent people have had experiences of masking and then unmasking in a different phase of their life has certainly been my story. Maybe less so for you because you kind of almost like stepped out of what would be a you know the normal life path that you're certainly your mother maybe there was less masking for you I don't know. but I was pondering this idea of the mask itself is an archetype, a pattern. it holds something it's not nothing. It's that the mask itself is is a creation. There is a creative aspect even of the mask.
And so
I'd love to know your sense of that. Like, what can we see rather than the recog like of course there is a there is a truth that is held beneath the mask, which is so much of the work that I do, but also the work that you do. But I wonder what could we honour or what could we see in the mask itself that perhaps we could easily dismiss? But what if we actually kind of picked the mask up and looked at that? What might that tell us?
Caroline Carey (48:37)
I think it's a really interesting question because I hear a lot about this masking and like you said, I don't think I used that mask particularly. I went my own way. I kind of did what I needed to do and I was myself, but not in all cases. There were moments where, of course, as a teenager, I tried to fit in with other girls and try to do the things that they did. Pick up a cigarette, try and smoke it. Couldn't bear it, but you know, I'd still try.
Lian (48:48)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (49:04)
because I wanted to be like them on some level. I went through all the usual experiences that, you know, that children, teenagers would go through. But I don't think I ever really tried that hard to fit in. I was going to be myself. And one of my teachers, once actually, Gabrielle Roth, who I trained with, she said, yeah, Caroline's just being herself. And I really thought, thanks, Gabrielle. Yeah.
Lian (49:18)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (49:32)
So that was a compliment. And I was, I didn't really know how to do it another way. And that was kind of the story of my life. But I think you're absolutely right. I think we need to stop going all this awful masking business. It has been so unhelpful and I just can't be myself. Well, hey, most people can't really be themselves, you know, because of conditioning. So I...
Lian (49:40)
Mm.
Mm.
Caroline Carey (50:00)
I tend not to use the word mask very much. I don't think I wrote it in my book particularly because I just think, you know, it's conditioning. It's how am I going to fit into the world and do the things I need to do without putting something on, whether it's a costume, whether it's a mask or a persona in order to get what I need. The problem is, is that quite often we're trying to get things that we don't need and that
Lian (50:28)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (50:29)
Don't actually work for us and don't suit us but that's all we know is so it's not about the mask that's clever the mask is clever it'll get you through you know certain situations but it's asking whether I really need that mask or not can I take that mask off and yeah I might not get through the door for that particular career whilst but then actually well what's the truth here what do I really want for myself and what do I need and what does my
Lian (50:50)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (50:58)
soul journey, what is my life story when I apprentice to that fully, what does that show me that I'm here to bring to the world? What's my particular gift? What's my particular quality that is needed here? That's what I would be looking at. Yeah, yeah, the mask gets us through certain situations, but it's those situations we're choosing that might be the thing that we need to let go of, not necessarily the mask.
Lian (51:24)
Hmm.
Caroline Carey (51:26)
The mask is probably now is something quite useful. Well, play with that one. I go to an acting school. I love, still love acting and I'm doing a training at the moment and I can bring those masks out, you know, or any, character it is and I can play with it. And I've got certain ones that I probably explored many times in life. Maybe they fitted, maybe they haven't, but I can play around with them and have a wonderful time. And they're very useful to me, but I know to leave them at the door when I walk out. It's not home.
Lian (51:58)
Mm. Your response gave me a glimpse of something I'd not seen as clearly as this before. I think you're quite right. There is, in on one hand, masking is, I guess you could say, a more extreme form of conditioning that, as you say, practically everyone in this modern world has aspects of that. but I was also thinking there is something
Caroline Carey (52:19)
you
Lian (52:27)
interesting about what you just said there about acting and roles and then linking it back to archetypes. I think there is something interesting in the neurodivergent gift for creating these kind of like particular masks and how fully we can wear them. and I think sometimes that getting gets dismissed in in this idea of like it's just a bad thing. It's like there's a gift in that in itself that they we can create these glorious masks that we can kind of choose to wear or not wear. Clearly at some points it isn't, it's only when this becomes made conscious that these things are a choice. but yeah, there's something interesting to me in that. There is a creative act and a real power in that ability to kind of wield these archetypes. that I think is I think so much of The conversation culturally about neurodivergence is just totally devoid of soul and spirit. and I think conversations like this are important because we're kind of realizing like these things aren't separate at all. This this this is all about soul and spirit, actually. but yeah, it occurs to me like even the masking part is also quite interesting from that notion of like, what does that tell you about neurodivergent gifts?
Caroline Carey (53:48)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's a very clever resource to have to be able to develop something
Lian (53:53)
Mm.
Caroline Carey (53:55)
to help you manage to cope your coping mechanism in life. It's when it becomes exhausting. It's when it becomes I just don't want to play this game anymore. And I think a lot happens for women around menopause when they start to want to go, you know, who am I really, and entering the second half of life and preparing for that and going well.
Lian (53:57)
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Caroline Carey (54:15)
you know, is this really who I am? And I'm starting to question that. And Menopause is most wonderful time, most wonderful rite of passage for any woman, I believe. And this is stripping away, literally, literally like sweating away and crying away and screaming away the layers and layers of that conditioning. And if we allow ourselves to go through that process, then a lot of the masks do start to drop away.
Lian (54:18)
Yeah.
Caroline Carey (54:44)
but there's a tendency to want hold on, hold on to them because I don't want to look that ugly, I don't want to look that old, I don't want to get those wrinkles, I don't want my body to change that much, all those sorts of things start to come into play. I don't want my husband to see me falling apart, whatever it is. But you know, the menopause is there to go, hey, it's time to wake up and really be your true self. We've had to live the story we've lived through because that is our teacher, that is our education through life, we've needed that.
Lian (54:47)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Caroline Carey (55:13)
So never dismiss that, never say it's wrong. What I've lived through and I've lived through some very, challenging experiences, all of that needed to be part of my journey in order for me to grow into the person I am today. everything's been an amazing lesson, even the really difficult, horrible bits, but they've been necessary because what I do is I look for the deepest meaning of that and I turn it around into something.
Caroline Carey (55:43)
beautiful, something powerful, something creative and that way that's the centre of the mandorla to be with all that is shine a light on those most difficult moments and you know bring it out, bring it out into the world whatever it is and make good use of it and be of service to others in the community and share that experience and your particular solutions and gifts from it.
Lian (56:02)
And Yeah. I loved how you said earlier apprentice to one's own story. yeah.
Caroline Carey (56:16)
That's my work. That's the root of all my work. Don't apprentice to me. Don't apprentice to anybody else. Well, I mean, you know, there's some wonderful teachers out there and guides and like, but apprentice to your life journey. That's where the truth will be found. When we can be really absolutely honest with ourselves. It will show us everything.
Lian (56:37)
Yeah.
thank you so much, Caroline. This has been such a pleasure. It really has. Where can listeners find out more about you and your work and your books, which I'm sure they will, please do so.
Caroline Carey (56:51)
You can find the best places to go to my website at middleearthmedicine.com. That's my website. I'm on most social media platforms, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. I'm not prolific with my postings. I put the odd things up and I don't have anybody, you know, well, I do actually have an admin person. More recently, since I became Neurodivergent and I got access to work grant to help me with my business, which I just went.
Lian (57:17)
yes.
Caroline Carey (57:19)
Thank you. I mean, there you go. There's a benefit of the diagnosis. I was absolutely delighted and she's wonderful. So we're sort of looking at what is it that we can do, how she can help me with this. You can read about me and my journey and where I found the work that I do. That's the Neurodivergent Soul. That's my latest book and it talks about my journey, but it also talks about the journey of neurodiversity and spirituality.
Lian (57:22)
Yes.
Caroline Carey (57:47)
There's some exercises in it and little missions and yeah just a few questionnaires that sort of thing and creative projects you might want to take part in. My own actual story before I knew I was neurodivergent but clearly spells it out. Except yeah this is my autobiography and there's some there's some
Lian (58:04)
Basically the same book.
Ha ha ha
Caroline Carey (58:16)
course that makes sense. So that's Miss Guided Engine and it's revisited, it's not the blue one because that's the one I first wrote and I'm like oh no that wasn't good enough so I had to rewrite it and put the second book I wrote which was Reclaiming Innocence into that one so that's a combination of two books. And I have other books, I have Oracle Cards, I other books about the journey that you can take with the archetypes and
Lian (58:17)
Ha ha ha.
Caroline Carey (58:43)
Yeah and I'm very happy if people want to write and send me an email I'll get back to them and nothing too long of course I don't process that easily but I'm very happy to be in touch with people. I do courses, online courses, I used to work in lots of different countries and travel a lot but you know I'm 65 now I'm kind of a bit like you know I don't I never like traveling I love doing the work but I didn't like traveling.
Lian (58:52)
Yeah.
Caroline Carey (59:11)
So I'm at home now, I work online mostly. There will be in-person workshops on occasion, but yeah, I run courses and I do one-to-one coaching. So yeah, that's
Lian (59:23)
Thank you so much. again, such a pleasure and I look forward to our next conversation, which I insist upon. back at yours too.
Caroline Carey (59:30)
I do too, Lian. Thank you very much. Love to you and your beautiful dogs.
Lian Brook-Tyler (59:39)
What a rich episode. Here are three takeaways. Receiving an autism diagnosis late in life after
decades of building a path, a practice, and our lives themselves tends to function more as confirmation rather than revelation. The soul work, it turns out, was already tracking that same territory long before there was this idea of a clinical name for it. The neurodivergent mind perceives differently, processes differently, and moves through the world by its own particular understanding.
So, for many people on shamanic and spiritual paths, that difference is not incidental to the work, it is the root of it. Masking is not just a wound, perhaps, it could also be a creative act, a resource built in response to real circumstances. The more useful question is not about how to dismantle it, but what it was protecting, what it was teaching us, and whether the situations that called it into being are the ones.
Still aligned for us, still worth returning to. If you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for the links, they're at wildsovereignsoul.com/podcast/554 And as you heard me say earlier, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and your heart longs for guidance, kinship, and support, come join us in Unio the community for Wild Sovereign Souls. You can discover more and join us by hopping over to wildsovereignsoul.com/unio now. Let's walk the path home together.
And if you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, head on over to your podcasting app or platform of choice, including YouTube, and click that subscribe or follow button. That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device automatically as soon as it comes out.
Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful. I'll catch you again next week. And until then, you have all my love and blessings as you walk your wild sovereign soul path.