Fermenting change: how to use friction to slow down - Kirsten K. Shockey
Episode 558, released 23rd July 2026.
Fermentation expert and author Kirsten K. Shockey joins Lian to explore what we lose when we stop fermenting our own food, why choosing inconvenience is becoming a countercultural act, and what microbes might be running more of the show than we think.
Listen or watch on:
Or if you prefer to read: Scroll right down for the transcript
Kirsten K. Shockey is a mother and grandmother who loves to plant trees and rescue beavers. When she isn’t playing or helping people to make, enjoy and connect with their food she can be found writing about life and fermentation at fermentingchange.substack from her home in the mountains of southern Oregon.
Kirsten is the author of award-winning Homebrewed Vinegar, coauthor, with her husband, Christopher Shockey, of award-winning The Big Book of Cidermaking; award-winning Miso, Tempeh, Natto & Other Tasty Ferments; Fiery Ferments; and the best-selling Fermented Vegetables and Fermented Vegetables second edition.
She is co-founder of The Fermentation School a women-owned and women-led benefits corporation supporting the voices of independent educators to empower learning and build culture where you can find her online courses.
In this episode, Lian and Kirsten look at ‘friction maxing’, and why so many people are finding themselves drawn back to slower, harder, more hands-on ways of doing things, and what fermentation has to do with it. They talk about what it means to choose inconvenience, how the microbes we co-evolved with for millions of years are still shaping our cravings, our gut, our moods, and possibly even more, and what gets lost when we hand all of that over to a factory and call it progress.
The conversation moves into the fear that stops most people before they even start, the grief of skills that stopped being passed down, and what Kirsten has noticed about what happens to people once they have something alive and bubbling on their counter, how quickly it stops feeling like a hobby and starts feeling like something precious that they didn't know they were missing in their lives.
Listen if you keep finding yourself drawn to slower, older, more hands-on ways of doing things and you're not sure how to make that happen in your busy life, or if you already ferment and have noticed it feels like more than just a hobby, and are wondering what that could mean.
We’d love to know what YOU think about this week’s show. Let’s carry on the conversation… please leave a comment below.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
Why the question fermentation folk keep coming back to is: who domesticated whom, us or the microbes?
How friction maxing can show up as inner or outer inconvenience and discomfort
What a single jar of something bubbling on a kitchen counter might be doing for a person's relationship with the living world
Resources and stuff that we spoke about:
Join UNIO, The Community for Wild Sovereign Souls: This is for the old souls in this new world… Discover your kin & unite with your soul’s calling to truly live your myth.
Don’t want to miss a thing?
Subscribe (BTW, it’s absolutely FREE) to the show on your favourite platform or app by clicking the relevant button below… That way you’ll receive each episode automagically straight to your device as soon as it’s released!
Thank you!
Lian & Jonathan
Episode Transcript:
Please note: We are a small team and not able to check through the transcript our software provides. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@wildsovereignsoul.com.
Lian (00:00)
Is doing things the harder, slower way just a trend? Or could we perhaps be remembering something that is vital for us as humans to live well?
This week I'm joined by fermentation expert and author Kirsten K. Shockey to explore friction maxing, what we lose when we stop fermenting our own food, why choosing inconvenience is becoming a countercultural act and why microbes might be running more of the show than we think. Kirsten is the best-selling author of fermented vegetables and co-founder of the Fermentation School, a woman-led educational collective based in the mountains of Southern Oregon. So, together we look at friction maxing and why so many people are finding themselves drawn back to slower, harder, more hands-on ways of doing things, and what fermentation could have to do with that.
We get into what it means to choose inconvenience. How the microbes we co-evolved with for millions of years are still shaping our cravings, our gut, our moods, and possibly more. And what gets lost when we hand all of that over to a factory and call it progress. So listen, if you keep finding yourself drawn to slower, older, those kind of like getting our hands in and doing it ourselves way of doing things. And you're not sure how to really make that happen in your own, probably busy modern life. or if, like me, you're already ferment and have noticed it feels more than just a hobby or a way of creating delicious, healthy food. And I'm wondering what that could mean. As you will hear in the show, I am a real fan of fermenting. It's one of my favourite, favourite things to do. And having Kirsten to talk about this with me was just such a treat. And so I really hope, even if you're not a fan of fermentation, you will get so much from this. I'm fairly confident you will. If you're new here, this is a show about the deeper, truer life, the one your soul is calling you towards. If you've been here before, you already know that. And that calling is exactly why UNIO exists. UNIO is the living community of the wild sovereign soul path where Jonathan and I meet with members twice each month in our guidance circle to meet whatever is alive in your life. And that really could be anything from health to relationships to your work, the places you're feeling stuck or called or both, often they show up simultaneously. And we bring everything we are and everything we know to meet you exactly where you are and to help you move forward. We also made Unio tiered so that money is never what keeps someone from walking this path. So you can find out more and join us at wildsovereignsoul.com/unio And now back to this week's episode, let's dive in.
Lian (03:05)
Hello, Kirsten. Welcome to the show.
Kirsten Shockey (03:08)
Hi Lian thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
Lian (03:11)
my goodness, we are going to talk about one of my very favourite things. And yes, I am delighted to talk all things microbes, fermentation, and the kind of bigger, let's say, context that sits in. but before we jump into that, I find over and over again in the work that we do and in the people that I speak to for the podcast that we so often can see when we go back to childhood that there is signs right back then that foretell what we end up doing in adulthood, or at least in adulthood, once we've, I guess, found our soul path. And I've seen this over and over again. So I'm really intrigued what that might be for you. And I also notice, and this is where I'm noticing there might be a distinction, maybe not.
So for some guests, there is a kind of clear the calling was in the wound, where there was some kind of deep wound that they had to kind of alchemize into medicine in order to be and do what they are now. Sometimes it doesn't seem that way. For example, I had a wonderful woman Hunter on the show recently, and in her case, Christy Green, and in her case. It didn't seem that way. Almost as like she was born into this knowing, this way of life that she reclaimed in adulthood. And so I don't know what that is, which way it's gonna be for you. So I'm looking for the pattern here. So I would love to know how when we track back to your childhood, what were the signs that showed you what you became, what you ended up doing today?
Kirsten Shockey (05:05)
Sure. yeah, I guess to me that it's almost actually, I think, a little bit obvious. Maybe maybe not the fermentation, but the lifestyle choices that I made to get me to this place. so I grew up third culture kid. I have an American mother and a German father, and they were both academics, and my father was doing his research and He's an anthropologist. And so I lived not only both in Germany and in the US, but we lived in Indonesia, in the Moluccas on a small island, Ambon, for a year and a half when I was little. and that's a whole other, you know, lovely story sort of in a way. but
Lian (05:51)
wow. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Shockey (06:03)
you know, it's the early seventies. There's no power, there's no anything. it's really of a century before compared to, you know, the Western the Western world. anyway, and then also, you know, we lived in different places in the States and we lived he did some more research or some work in Holland, and so I was bouncing a lot.
Lian (06:17)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (06:32)
And I think when I had my own children, I was pretty pretty determined to dig in my hills somewhere and at least give them a place. and it happens to be we're in the you know, I didn't grow up particularly rurally and I didn't grow up particularly urban. You know, we moved around a lot, so I had both. I didn't even particularly ever imagine living out
Lian (06:52)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Kirsten Shockey (07:02)
as we do, we're quite rural, surrounded by, you know, thousands upon thousands of hectares of of forested land, public land mostly. but I had this strong sense of giving my children place because I felt as if I didn't have place in my life. In in Germany my cousins, I was the American cousin here they didn't know what to do with me. And so, you know, it there was that. And then there was just moving all the time and friends. And, you know, back then it was pen pals. so part of moving out here, I think, was I was by that time in my twenties. I well, we moved here when I was just thirty, but in my twenties I really wanted my children to have
Lian (07:40)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (08:01)
a connection with the natural world, with nature, and be grounded. I think I was feeling this maybe that was coming, that we are not grounded and that connection with nature is hard for some people to access. I don't know. and then the other thing I became passionate about is is it was it was early on in the
Lian (08:22)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (08:31)
you know, the whole organic food movement and whatnot. And I just became passionate about wanting my children and I'm you know, I wasn't anxious or anything that I remember, but I just felt this strong need that they needed to know where their food came from and how to access food, how to grow it.
Lian (08:57)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (08:57)
You know, my son is now a bow hunter and he has a family and that's part of how they get protein is he, you know, goes and out and hunts elk every winter. you know, we weren't at all hunters, but we did dairy animals and all of that. So it was just that that feeling of like I said, wanting them to be a little more connected and wanting them to understand where their food comes from and you know the rest of the kids have a very normal you know lifestyle go to the grocery store go to the market you know maybe a little garden plant here and there but but yeah but like I know in my heart they know how to they know they would they wouldn't be completely lost if they wanted to you know sort of do something different.
Lian (09:41)
So they've repelled in a way.
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (09:56)
at some point in their life. So
Lian (09:56)
Yeah. Yeah. And they they may well return to that way of living. Amazing. I was feeling a connection between what you've just shared and things that I've experienced. It wasn't quite as like all over the world as your childhood, but my father and I was raised by a single father and we traveled a lot.
And I've recognised in myself that same sense of wanting home and this feeling of belonging for my children. And it's interesting to hear that that feels as though it's a really important part of what you've what's led you to create the kind of life that you have is it's in part, I guess, giving your children and then perhaps your own inner child that which you didn't have.
It really makes so much sense. So taking this into more specifically, I guess there's lots of different ways of creating that sense of belonging and home. For you, why do you feel it's been the specific way that you've created that with homesteading and that slowing down and reclamation of older ways of living and eating, why do you feel that it's taken that form?
Kirsten Shockey (11:32)
you know, I think it's funny because I think that it really did start with just wanting to be in the woods. you know, and being surrounded by trees. I'm a tree person through and through. as a small aside, you know, my family laughs at me because I'm also passionate about beavers who famously cut down trees, but that there's nuance there, but we're not gonna go there. It is. anyway, yeah, so I think but we moved to this this property that is should have never been homesteaded. I mean this area is called poverty with a view because it should be forest, but it was cleared as a homestead.
Lian (12:06)
Inconvenient pairing.
Kirsten Shockey (12:29)
you know, hundred, hundred and fifty years ago. And you know, there's this old charming barn that was here. And there were you know, hundred year old fruit trees. And so I think it was actually the property that invited me into this space. I mean I was already passionate about food, but not necessarily my own growing of it. But once we moved here, which like I said was for the woods, ended up bringing on this whole other thing. And I think it also sort of turned on the little girl and me who'd, you know, watched the Little House on the Prairie episodes and read the books and, you know, the the idyllic life that was portrayed there, which is a little much more complicated than
Lian (13:18)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (13:30)
That's a whole other complication. But, you know, for the nine year old me, that I think that it turned that nine year old brain on too is to you know, just this family doing things together. and you know, when suddenly you have pastures and it's like, yeah, you want a goat? Sure, let's get a goat. And then you're suddenly with a bunch of milk and then it's like, what do you do with this milk? And you know, this is the early early late late nineteen nineties, early two thousands and all these wonderful books out there on cheese making and that really didn't exist. There were a few kind of nineteen seventies back to the land things and you know, in this area, especially the older pioneer farmer or whatever generation had already either retired or were so done with that. but mostly, you know, their properties were sold to other folks. And so, yeah, suddenly it was like, my God, we grew food and now we have an abundance, which I didn't see coming. This was all just so organic and I won't say chaotic, but kind of. And yeah, then you're like, we have to
Lian (14:46)
Yeah.
Kirsten Shockey (14:55)
preserve this. We worked hard that that goat worked hard for this milk and yeah, so that became teaching ourselves cheese making and and all of that. So that was actually, you know, if we dip into the fermentation part, that was the first real ferment that I was doing, but it the language wasn't there as cheesemaking as fermentation at that time. It was culturing cheesemaking
Lian (15:05)
Mm, wonderful.
Kirsten Shockey (15:23)
You know, I knew I was working with microbes. It wasn't that. It was just we didn't place these foods into the buckets of fermentation. Fermentation was just sort of it wasn't used in our vernacular and our language the way it is now. Yeah, it was fairly recently that I'm like, my first fermentation wasn't the vegetables, it was wasn't the apples to cider, it was
Lian (15:33)
Mm. Yeah.
Mm, yes, that really makes it sort of compartmentalized. Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (15:54)
yeah, it was cheese.
Lian (15:57)
it's so funny when we connect the dots looking back. It's obvious it was there to be seen all along. yeah, really makes sense. So there's kind of two different ways I want to take this conversation now. So actually I'm going to name both, and I think probably they'll weave together. So you decide how you want to answer me. So there's part of me that I was thinking back to something you said when we were chatting before we started recording. And I was saying how much I love fermentation. And then when I saw your article on friction maxing, I was like, great, I've got an excuse to now get you on and we can also talk about fermentation. And then you said something like, yeah, the microbes get you, don't they? You said something like that. And so that came to mind again as you were talking and I was like I wonder if you were to
Phrase back the journey that you've taken on and how we know now modern science is starting to recognize, you know, this connection between the gut and the brain. and I was like, I wonder how much. I understand what you said when you like the land almost showed you the way, the land taught you, and also the microbes perhaps did. And I was thinking, I would love to ask you tracking back.
Do you feel like the microbes were kind of showing you the way and showing you what was next? And then there was a question I also wanted to ask you. And again, I think the pro two are possibly linked, but I'm gonna ask you both. It was recognizing that since the time that you began, you moved to the land, since then, our culture has just done everything in its power to go faster, make things more convenient, like take out steps, you know, have as little human hands-on things as possible. Meanwhile, it sounds like you've gone the opposite way. And it's like, let's go even slower. Let's have even more intimacy with whatever it is that we're growing and eating. and just wanted to hear kind of like how conscious that was, why that was. And so anyway, there's two seemingly separate questions there, but maybe they're not.
Kirsten Shockey (18:16)
Maybe they're not.
Well, I'll start with the microbes showing the way. we laugh sort of in our fermentation circles because you know the science is showing us, and it's sort of a duh that once you think about it. Like, do we need the science to show us this? But in this culture apparently we do. But the science is showing us that we evolved with these microbes. We never until the modern times did we have sterile food. Like never. You know, primates, our our way back ancestors you know, had to eat that fruit that fell out of the tree. It still was nutrition. It still was capturing nutrients and and all of that. And so
Lian (18:57)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (19:18)
you know, you think about that, ten million years ago, primates developed the ability to process alcohol. The reason we believe that is the case was because, you know, the microbes, the yeast would get into this fruit and start fermenting it right away and make it first into ethanol. And we needed to still capture that nutrition. and then our bodies As we evolved, it's not just the probiotics, which is what people think of. It's not just but it's what these foods do to transform our food. and it's the metabolites, which is basically the products that they make, whether it's the bacteria, the yeast, or whatever, they make other products, you know. and those micro micronutrients are just so important for us. And so when you get a bunch of fermentation nerds together in a room, you know, the fun discussion is not how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin. It's who domesticated who? Did we domesticate the microbes to preserve our foods and make them delicious and make them last? Or did they domesticate us because we need them?
Lian (20:44)
Mm
Wow.
Kirsten Shockey (20:45)
And we use them to make our foods like, you know, it was originally preservation. These foods were all here because our ancestors successfully fermented. You know, you start going down traditional foods in every culture and even ones that we highly process now and and most of them not the really ultra processed weird things, but
Lian (20:55)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (21:14)
You know, like cheese puffs. But, you know, every other food, you know, whether it's charcuterie, ham, salami, bologna, you know, all of these foods were originally the flavours came through fermentation and they were made to to keep this meat longer or to keep this cheese this milk longer as cheese or, you know, all the vegetables and and vitamin C goes up and
Lian (21:16)
Yeah.
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (21:42)
And there's just so many places that we need what the microbes do to the foods. so I think I think that is really interesting. And I also, you know, back to did microbes show the way? I mean, our cravings, what's in our, you know, if you're like, I really need the jelly donut, or if you're thinking, Boy, I could use a dollop of kimchi, it's not us, it's them, you know.
Lian (21:48)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (22:12)
So they do and as we eat these foods, they're one hundred percent. And so yeah, that's a good question. Did they show the way they might have very well been involved? and maybe they suggested slowing down, I don't know. But yeah, as far as you know, the whole idea of friction maxing and slowing down.
Lian (22:13)
They're the masters and we're the servants.
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (22:44)
you know, that really came from friction maxing at
Lian (22:45)
Would you define that term actually? Because what we've kind of launched into using yeah.
Would you mind starting with a definition of what's what you're meaning by that?
Kirsten Shockey (22:55)
Yeah, so in this world where like you said everything is being made simpler and faster and and all of that. It's a term I came across recently and I laughed because I'm like, this is all I do is make my life harder. I can't do it the easy way. So for example, you
Lian (23:11)
Yeah.
You look.
Even harder.
Kirsten Shockey (23:25)
choose to walk the stairs instead of the escalator or the elevator. You choose to you know, it can be the simplest, simplest choices where you choose maybe to write something down instead of speaking it into your phone as a note. And it's stuff that, you know, can be really
Lian (23:46)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (23:53)
you know, if you're if you've overachieve a friction max or then you buy a funky piece of property on a hillside and decide you're gonna grow your food. But you know, in this case it might be you you decide to grate your own cheese instead of buying it pre-grated or you know you choose to ferment your vegetables or just anything. So I think again people that are
Lian (24:05)
Yeah.
Kirsten Shockey (24:23)
studying our bodies, our brains, and how we've evolved through all this time is wow, we need to be doing things. Our brains need to be doing things. We can't make everything so simple with no thought behind it and no you know, we get so much out of literally writing and moving this pen across the page. It changes the dynamic with our brain.
Lian (24:48)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (24:53)
so that's I guess a long definition of friction maxing is just choosing ways because life has become so easy in certain ways, and certain ways I would argue so much harder to to not just do the little things that make us human. And so yeah, I think I think that's it in a nutshell, those tiny things that make us human and trying to find ways to bring that back into our space and that can be that can be anything. and it can be making, you know, chopping up some cabbage, feeling it as you're squishing the salt in, stuffing it into a jar, and then having it on your counter and watching watching the microbes, unseen microbes, you know, start to bubble it and make it smell pickly and make those sour flavours. It's I mean, I
Lian (25:39)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Shockey (25:50)
the the idealist part of me so I think I was starting to say that I tend to overdo everything and I tend to really you know try to make it the best way that I the hardest way really is that is that you know if if everybody had a jar of just something bubbling, it can be kombucha, it can be sauerkraut, it can be kimchi, it can be vinegar, it can be cider. You know, it can be Miso, anything on their counter that they're watching transform, even in a high rise where they don't have any connectivity to the earth and the dirt, you're still getting that connection with nature. And I think for me, what I see in this world right now is that we need to remember, and it's so hard.
Lian (26:32)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (26:50)
with all the conveniences and all the dazzle and concrete and whatever, we are nature, we're part of nature, we're not separate from nature. And I feel like with the fermentation and with slowing down you have a chance to kind of feel that connection, that that reminder that, you know, it's all we're all part of it. We don't live without the microbes. I think ultimately they'll live without us.
Lian (27:15)
Mm.
my gosh. Everything you just said there evokes so much for me. funnily enough, just this morning I was making a new batch of this. It's kind of sauerkraut, but I I've added you know how you sort of end up with these like blends that you make over the years is one of my favourite ones where it's got turmeric and lots of other different bits and pieces. So it's quite garlicky and gingery. And because of the turmeric, I was kind of doing the massaging then afterwards I was like, here I go again, yellow fingers for however long it takes until it wears off. And as I was doing that, and obviously I was aware that we were recording this today, I was like, This is so such perfect timing because it was really bringing me present to you, you know, as you're saying, like, you know, even that massaging and releasing the juices and how there isn't really a way of making that faster. Like you are doing that until it's done.
And every time I do it, it's like another opportunity to almost meet it this time all over again. And then say, you know, just the inconvenience of having yellow fingers, but being like, isn't that perfect and magical at the same time in today's world where we try and do everything not to, you know, have that inconvenience of having yellow hands or whatever the thing is. and just, you know, all of that just in one jar.
Kirsten Shockey (28:41)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lian (28:55)
Actually, was two jars I made, but two jars of kraut. So coming back to what you were touching on earlier, how our ancestors evolved with alongside these microbes. And it's the more you think about the more mind blowing it is. Like there were just we could go back and back and back and just see that so clearly.
And so you touched on some of the ways nutritionally we can see how we are bereft of certain things if we aren't eating fermented food. I wonder what you've seen in terms of there, perhaps, and I'm not asking you to be like this if you know empirical or you know, I have data on this. Obviously, if you do, brilliant. I'm more just asking your sense. What else might we be bereft of in this modern world when most people aren't fermenting their own food or eating fermented food, as well as the health benefits? What else could it be that we are blessed by when we are consciously in relationship with these microbes? What else might be might we be missing and
had the opportunity to reclaim.
Kirsten Shockey (30:25)
Yeah.
Well, I think the first thing that comes to mind is you know, it our pronouns should all be we because so much of us and our DNA is these microbes that are living in every part of our body. and so I think when you're limiting the the diversity of populations by not
Lian (30:40)
Hmm.
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (30:56)
Having the diversity and not having the foods to help, you know, keep all the systems, you know, there's just so many in all parts of us. You know, what are we missing? I don't know, but we are probably missing that diversity, those beings, no matter how tiny they are, that are somehow part of us. I mean if we're going to go to you know that space. We do know that that each you know type of these each of these species have you know that they're really able to now study you know the individuals per se and they there's some of them that they're finding have such important roles like there's one Acromancia and We in this culture don't have a lot of that left in our in our microbiome. and what it does is it actually its job is to eat the the gut lining. which sounds like, well that's not great, you know, we don't want that. But
Lian (32:13)
It sounds like the beavers in the trees.
Kirsten Shockey (32:17)
Totally. But if you don't have it, there's nothing there you don't have that turnover. It's cleaning house. You know, it's it's it's it's actually just dusting. If you have too much of it, you know, it's scrubbing too hard, I guess, if we're gonna stick with the dusting metaphor. And so, you know, it's it's all such a balance, but you know the fact that that particular microbe and it thrives on, you know, the polyphenols, the bright colored fruit and the you know the foods with the fibers and and whatnot. And if we're just not having that, we're not gonna have that microbe in good populations and some people don't have any of it. and over the long term, you know, we get our microbiome when we're born from our parents and if our you know, increasingly if mothers are bereft of the microbes, then their children are already starting out a little behind and so not to be depressing. It's just, you know, there's there's so many levels where it does make a difference for us.
Lian (33:16)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Shockey (33:42)
and then, you know, that the gut mind connection that you touched on a little bit with the vagus nerve and and all of that. You know, I think I think we're just we have no idea how important that is. And then I had mentioned earlier the metabolites. And so eating the foods we get the metabolites because these foods have been pre digested by the microbes. It's like it's like having a second gut on the outside of us when we've eaten these foods. and so they're coming in more bioavailable. Our own microbes are, you know, they know what to do with it, and they can digest it. So it's all just so braided together and back to I think our modern selves kind of
Lian (34:13)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (34:38)
think we're beyond that, you know, with our all our bells and whistles, but we're just still not. We're biological be biological being
Lian (34:46)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're really not. So the you saying the word braiding made me think of something that again, there's almost like two different ways I'm thinking of this. And so I'm gonna name both and I'd love to hear what comes up for you. I was thinking that Of course, so many of these traditional skills have been all but lost. I mean, they exist, but in terms of going back you know, however many hundreds or thousands of years, each family would have had people that knew how to do these things and then would have directly passed it down and down and down. That's not the case for most of us these days. and I was like, There is a kind of grief that I can feel where we've lost that. I don't know. in fact, I'd love to know how you learn to ferment. It sounds like there was a kind of, you know, you were being taught as you went along by the microbes to an extent. But certainly personally, I didn't have someone to teach me. I was kind of learning as I went along. Obviously, one can read from you know, books and things like that, through this or that type of teacher. But we have lost that way of being handed down these birthright, these gifts. And yet, simultaneously, I was like, with so many of these things, it kind of feels like it's in our DNA, whereas our ancestors have done these things for so long, it feels as though there is a kind of sort of blood and bone knowing that starts to come back. Where I know in the early days of me fermenting, I would kind of feel called to do something and be like, hmm, that doesn't seem like doesn't, you know, it doesn't, it's not how I read I'm supposed to do this thing. And then would find out afterwards, like, this is a known way of doing it. But I didn't know, I didn't intellectually know that, I don't think, but my hands knew somehow. And so there is a kind of like gift from our long-arrow ancestors that we are still being handed down. So anyway, that was kind of a mix of both things, but that came to mind when you spoke about braiding for some reason, but I'd love to hear your sense of that.
Kirsten Shockey (37:28)
I completely agree. I think because when I started fermenting I there wasn't a lot out there. Nothing really. you know, I had a f a friend, a neighbour, who was a farmer at one point, and she grew vegetable for seed. And so she grew these beautiful Hubbard squash and they were they were beautiful and they had this beautiful flesh and you know they're for seeds so they're the best of the best. Yet her crop was the little seeds inside. All of this beautiful food
Lian (38:08)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (38:17)
They literally she invited my sons down and said, Will you come smash pumpkins with me? And they put out a huge tarp to open them up to scoop out the seeds. and then, you know, we both were like, This is really sad to waste all this food, you know. It goes in the compost pile, but still, it's still food. and
Lian (38:24)
wow.
Kirsten Shockey (38:45)
So that was one of the first moments where I'm looking at this food, it's open, it's way too much to put in my refrigerator. You know, as soon as as soon as an apple is plucked or, you know, any any food or vegetable is plucked, you know, it's it's a race against time to s to spoilage and you know, fermentation is just controlling that in
Lian (39:09)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (39:14)
our favour. And so that was the first time I was like, I wonder if I can ferment this. And at the time, you know, I laugh at myself now, I didn't fully understand the science, which is, you know, the lactobacillus consume the starch, the sugar in the vegetable, and create CO2 and acid. And it's the acid that does the preservation, because once it's below four point six on the pH scale. It's safe and it can stay stable for years. but I didn't understand that. So I went out on the internet. Can I ferment squash? Nothing. Can I ferment pumpkins? Nothing. I bet if you put that in there now you'd get and and but I that was the first time where I started to realise you know, since nothing said no way that's gonna kill you, I thought, well, let's try and see what happens. And then it was game on. and I was just fermenting everything, whether you know, from spinach to foraged greens to you know, and so I think yeah, it was all self-taught and it was all observing and who does what and The microbes, it's kind of the beauty of fermentation, you know, you knew that you could go off script. and I think that’s the part that's easier or harder for some folks is to understand that, you know, if you understand the microbes are making things acidic and that's gonna keep it safe. And if it smells fine and looks fine, you know, it can be funky smelling, you know, pickley or whatever, it is fine. Whereas there's so many other food practices that aren't that way, especially, you know, some of the modern ones. And so people are scared, like we've been told not to leave stuff on our counter. And you know, this goes against that, but then once you do and it works, then it's then it's then it's just the dials, you know, you've got the dials of the heat, the time.
Lian (41:20)
Mm.
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (41:46)
you know, whatever. And if you're understanding their needs, the microbes needs, then you can do anything. I mean, you can just create the flavours you wanna enjoy. And I think that's where the real fun comes in and you realise you really are I would say they're in control absolutely of the whole process. you're just trying to kind of steer them and and shepherd them to create what you
Lian (42:00)
Mm.
Yes.
Kirsten Shockey (42:13)
what you would like. But I think that's what I love about it. It is so accessible. You know, and I think I know so many people who were terrified and then they do their first and second jar of whatever and suddenly they're absolutely hooked, you know. Again, is it the microbes who's domesticating us or and and it's a meditation.
Lian (42:20)
Mm.
Yes, yes.
Kirsten Shockey (42:43)
For so many people too, they have a fermentation practice in that slowing down becomes their meditation. And you know, for those of us that can't sit still and meditate, it's it's another style, I think, of of a walking meditation, and that you're you're doing this thing, you're submitting to its time frame, especially while you're waiting for it to
Lian (42:53)
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (43:13)
to ferment and cure, you know, as you're watching it, you're seeing you're seeing the transformation.
Lian (43:21)
Mm. I love that so much. Yes, for me, it's a real rhythm of my days where I'm always have something fermenting, something that's been fermenting that I'm eating. And yeah, it really it has its own, you know, I think very, very similar to how as we begin to reconnect to the land and the seasons, I think this has its own rhythm too. That's what calls us back to ourselves, calls us back to our bodies.
So we are almost up on time, which I'm very sad about because I could continue talking about this forever. but you touched on something that I was pondering too, how there is often a real fear when people haven't fermented before. There is a lot of fear, you know, it's like out of our control, and it could go wrong, and I could poison myself. And What I've seen both personally and then also with friends that I've introduced fermenting to, it definitely has this real invitation to sort of meet ourselves in a way, you know, meet those places where we kind of recoil from life and hold ourselves kind of tight. And, you know, things can only come in this certain package, and you know, I need to know when it will do its thing. And As you say, there is something so beautiful that invites us to soften, it invites us to let go of control because we can't control it. but there's also that beautiful trust that comes with it because it doesn't take very many jars of fermenting whatever it is to to start to realise like, actually I can play, I can make art with this, I can befriend this. And like you say, there's that I've introduced friends to it, and then within you know a few weeks, they'll be like, I grew this in the garden and now I'm trying to ferment this. And it's something you know they've never even thought of fermenting before, and they're just there experimenting. and so yes, it feels to me there is something so much deeper it offers us, way beyond this kind of like, fermentation equals bacteria, you know, like there is something so
Kirsten Shockey (45:42)
Totally.
Lian (45:43)
So gentle, so beautiful about that.
Kirsten Shockey (45:47)
Yeah. I I that's that's I agree. I mean I think it's wonderful and I haven't thought of it before. I like what you said, you know, how it forces us. I mean I've I see it all the time, but forces us to confront some discomfort in a way that can feel very scary, you know. It is if you've never really eaten sour, that can be uncomfortable even.
Lian (45:48)
Yeah.
Mm.
Kirsten Shockey (46:17)
You know, even if you haven't made it yourself, just that or you know, the stronger smells, like depending on your diet, you're you may be sensitive to these stronger smells and and you know, these textures and and things. And so yeah, it but isn't confronting things that are difficult or or some things that are friction within ourselves is also
Lian (46:21)
Mm.
Yes, I was about to say we're back to friction maxing again,
Kirsten Shockey (46:46)
Yep. Is also re our inner friction, you
Lian (46:46)
aren't we? In a friction.
Kirsten Shockey (46:53)
know, is growth.
Lian (46:56)
Yeah, absolutely. my goodness. Well, before we close, I would just love to know what are your favourite ferments? Like what are the ones that you keep coming back to that are just like they will always have a place on your shelf?
Kirsten Shockey (47:13)
well I've got I've always got you know, s vegetables, multiple vegetables. I still have a big garden and it is, you know, zucchini, like you can't can it, you can't save it, but you get so much of it. So any variation of that and it's sort of back to that original topic of playing and seasonality, like I use these
Lian (47:29)
Yeah.
Kirsten Shockey (47:41)
to get me through the seasons when the vegetables aren't fresh. So I'm always gonna have vegetables. and the combinations are gonna be different depending on who's in the garden together that year at the same time. and then I love natto, which is a Japanese ferment that has a whole different texture and we're out of time so I won't go into it but look up natto if you're curious. it's it's it
Lian (47:52)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Shockey (48:11)
is, you know, one of the world's super foods. So I will always have Natto around, always a little miso. it's hard to have a favourite, but I think the vegetables are still gonna always be, you know, the backbone.
Lian (48:26)
Mm. Yeah. Yum, you've made me you made me hungry and I mean I can't help but want to taste everything you've just talked about. But maybe one day, I know that you are planning to come over to this part of the world to do some workshops next year. so leaves me nicely to ask, where can listeners find out more about you and all the wonderful work you do and what you've got coming up?
Kirsten Shockey (48:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Shockley (48:55)
next May I will be on your side of the pond. my Substack is probably the most active place at the moment. So it's fermenting change at Substack, which is a newsletter platform for those that don't know. and then I have the fermentation school.com or no, there's no the Fermentation School.com is where you can take courses on vinegar making, fermenting vegetables, all kinds of things. and I have what five five books, Fermented Vegetables, which was our first book, and it's out in its 10th anniversary edition. Fiery Ferments, which is all condiments, misotempe nato, which is a lot of Asian ferments and sort of going down the carbs, the starches, the beans and the grains. Big Book of Cider Making and Homebrewed Vinegar, which vinegar is a lot of fun. just saying
Lian (50:08)
May maybe this is the microbes going from you to me. Maybe I'm meant to now start the vinegar.
Kirsten Shockley (50:16)
Yeah, I mean it's all about sugar. Yeah.
Lian (50:18)
Yeah.
Kirsten Shockley (50:22)
It's surprising how fun vinegar ended up being. so yeah, microbes microbes are it's all about sugar. And so with vinegar, anything that has some sugar or some flavour can become just these amazing vinegars. and all this like micronutrient of the original thing, whether it you know, persimmon or quince or whatever goes all the way through to the end. yeah, fun.
Lian (50:53)
Well, you've definitely given me something to go investigate after this. This has been such a joy. Again, for me personally, this has been a real treat, but hopefully it's also been something really I'm sure it has, really inviting for listeners too. So thank you so much and thank you for the wonderful work you do.
Kirsten Shockley (51:14)
Yeah, thank you. It's been a delightful conversation.
Lian (51:18)
I'm so pleased.
Kirsten Shockley (51:20)
always fun to also kind of look at fermentation from different places than just how to and how why is it good for me.
Lian (51:31)
Yes.
Thank you so much.
Lian (51:36)
What a glorious conversation. And not just because I absolutely adore fermentation. I really feel as though that had something in it for all of us. I'd love to hear your sense. But here are three things that stayed with me from this conversation. The question that Kirsten and her fellow fermentation folk keep returning to isn't about technique or nutrition, but something stranger and deeper. Who domesticated whom? We co-evolved with microbes for so long of so much of human history, and the science is beginning to suggest they have been shaping our cravings, our moods, our gut, and so much more in ways that go well beyond what most people realise when they reach for that jar of kimchi or sauerkraut or whatever your particular favourite is. Friction maxing, that deliberate choice to do things the slower, harder, more human, hands-on way, turns out to often have an inner dimension too. That same discomfort that shows up when you leave something on your counter and trust it to do its thing, when you wait.
When you let go of control, because ultimately you don't have control of what's really going on in there, is that discomfort that shows up with on the outer way of friction maxing that is also growth. What gets lost when fermentation disappears from daily life isn't just nutritional diversity, it's a relationship with the living world. One that
Hopefully and helpfully, as you've just heard in this episode, just one jar of something bubbling away on your kitchen side can in its own small way, or maybe not quite so small, begin to restore. If this conversation has stirred something in you that you can't quite answer alone, or you're feeling called to go deeper with something that keeps returning, that's exactly what our guidance circle in Unio is all about.
Twice each month, Jonathan and I meet with Unio members to meet whatever is alive for you. Not to give advice, not to say this is the next step, but to really meet you where you are and to help you move forward with it. But we constantly are told what a gift people experience Unio to be. It's a rare gem in this modern world.
And we're told that people feel so seen, so understood, so met, and so grateful to have a community like this. So if you're ready for this kind of company and support, come join us at wildsovereignsoul.com/unio And again, we've made it tiered so that money is never what stands between you and walking this path. Come join us.
And the links and show notes for this episode are at wildsovereignsoul.com/podcast/558 If you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, follow or subscribe, including YouTube, wherever you are listening or watching. Until then, I'm sending you all my love and blessings as you walk your Wild Sovereign Soul Path.