Practical spiritual support for the overwhelm of modern life - Caitlín Matthews
Episode 570, released 28th October 2026.
Lian and Celtic author and shamanic teacher Caitlín Matthews explore why so many people feel overwhelmed by world news, technology and everyday complexity, and how a minimum daily spiritual practice, prayer and ancestral support can help.
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Caitlín is an internationally renowned author, a teacher of shamanic training programme, a facilitator of Systemic Ritual® and the co-founder of the Foundation for Inspirational and Oracular Studies (FÍOS). She is the author of over 80 books, including Diary of a Soul Doctor, Singing the Soul Back Home, the Art of Celtic Seership, Celtic Devotional and The Celtic Book of the Dead. Her books have won a number of awards. She is known internationally for her work on the spiritual, mythic and ancestral traditions of Britain and Ireland. She teaches and works with communities and spiritual institutions worldwide from Iceland to Portugal and from USA to Australia.
Caitlín is a co-founder of the Foundation for Inspirational and Oracular Studies (FÍOS), which is dedicated to the sacred arts that shape the landscape of the soul, via vision, dream and memory. FÍOS hosts masterclasses with exemplars of living, oracular sacred traditions that are rarely recorded in writing or given an honourable place in modern society. Caitlín has had a shamanic healing practice in Oxford for the last 30 years, working in the community to deepen connections to the ancestral traditions which are our heritage.
In this episode, Lian and Caitlín talk about the heavy, hairy overcoat so many people are wearing in these times, made of 24 hour news, letters full of QR codes, local upheaval and the wider troubles of the world, all layered on top of whatever personal difficulty they have. Caitlín explains why that overcoat makes something serious feel catastrophic, and why it needs laying aside before anyone can see where they really are.
They look at why spiritual practice is so often the first thing to go when life gets hectic, although it is the thing that can really help… what a minimum practice might look like, along with prayer, calling on the ancestors who already know how to meet plague and upheaval, and asking for spirit allies when things get stuck.
Listen if you feel weighed down by everything happening in the world, or you’ve let your spiritual practice slip and wonder how to find your way back to it.
We’d love to know what YOU think about this week’s show. Let’s carry on the conversation… please leave a comment below.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
Why spiritual practice tends to disappear first when life becomes overwhelming, and how knowing your minimum practice keeps you connected
How to tell which parts of your overwhelm are yours to act on and which belong in the hands of something greater
What happens when you ask for a spirit advocate to help with something stuck in bureaucracy, like court papers sent to the wrong city or calls that never get returned
Resources and stuff that we spoke about:
For Caitlín’s books & courses see: www.hallowquest.org.uk
For more of Caitlín’s writing on a range of topics visit her Substack page here
Previous episode on How to transform your life with daily spiritual practice
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Lian & Jonathan
Episode Transcript:
Please note: We are a small team and not able to check through the transcript our software provides. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@wildsovereignsoul.com.
Lian (00:00)
When the news, the paperwork, and the troubles of the world pile up on top of your own, where do you turn for support? This week I'm joined by many-time past guest, author and shamanic teacher Caitlín Matthews, to explore why so many people feel overwhelmed by world news, technology, everyday complexity, and how a minimum daily spiritual practice, prayer and ancestral support can help.
Caitlín is an internationally renowned author of over 80 books and a teacher of shamanic training programmes.
We talk about the heavy, hairy overcoat that so many people are wearing in these times, made up of 24-hour news, letters full of QR codes, local upheaval, and of course the wider troubles of the world, or layered on top of whatever personal difficulties they have.
Caitlín explains why that overcoat makes something serious feel catastrophic, impossible even, and why it needs laying aside before anyone can see where they really are and what's being called for. We look at why spiritual practice is so often the first thing to go when life gets hard, although it is the thing that can really help. What minimum practice might look like along with prayer, calling on the ancestors who already know how to meet plague and upheaval, and asking spirit allies for help when things get stuck.
Listen if you feel weighed down by everything happening in the world, or you've let your spiritual practice slip and wonder how to find your way back to it. If you're new here, this is a show about the deeper, truer life, the one your soul is calling you towards.
If you've been here before, you already know that.
And that calling is exactly why UNIO exists. UNIO is the Fellowship of Wild Sovereign Souls, where Jonathan and I meet with members twice each month in our guidance circle to meet you in whatever is alive in your life. This could be really anything: your relationships, your health, your business, your soul path, the places you feel challenged or called, or both.
And we bring everything we are and everything we know to meet you exactly where you are and to help you move forward.
You can find out more and join us at wildsovereignsoul.com/unio.
And now back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.
Lian (02:39)
Caitlín, welcome back to the show. This is our kind of, I don't know, annual, or sometimes we get together twice a year, catch up and put the world to rights session. I think it's becoming. So welcome back.
Caitlín Matthews (02:52)
It really is. Thank you, Lian.
Lian (02:56)
Well, we have got actually, it's a very much putting the world to rights kind of topic today. And we...
Caitlín Matthews (03:02)
It is.
Lian (03:03)
We were talking about it through the lens of two metaphors that arised... rose in the moment, one of a layer cake, and the other one of this kind of heavy overcoat of what people are, that friction that people are experiencing when it comes to living, living well, living that deeper, more soulful life in this modern world, and then with their own personal challenges layered on top of that. So I'm going to hand to you because it was you that named it in those ways that I think that really brings to life what people are carrying at the moment. So if you... if you would begin by just naming what you're seeing people show up with when they come to you at the moment.
Caitlín Matthews (03:50)
Yeah. Yeah. The sort of... the war of attrition that's going on in the world generally, dealing with all sorts of difficulties which have become... or complexities which have made ordinary living very different. So things like dealing with AI or being presented as a friend of mine was with a letter from the hospital with all the things that he needed to bring with him and things he needed to look up with QR codes on. He's in his eighties. So those sorts of... but, you know, this sort of, you know, there's the personal stuff, there's the stuff that's happening locally, the stuff that's happening in the world, and then just the general ordinary procedures of life which have become very complex suddenly. So I think those are... those are the sorts of things that I think people come in with. And I know that I have to remind them every time that whatever it is they've got is kind of... feel now... feeling at like catastrophic levels, whereas in fact it's... it may be grave or serious, but it's made worse by that. So of course we have to take the overcoat off first. Just to... just dissect that, just take it back a little bit so we can see the actual level of where they really are. Because it's exaggerating everything.
Lian (05:18)
Yeah. There's something really profound about the way you just said like take that overcoat off, which of course isn't necessarily simple or the most obvious thing, but there is a real clarity to that. That that's needed, that's essential to one way or another be able to take it off and see it for what it is before we're able to really understand what's being asked of us. So let's go there. What really hit me as we were talking before we started recording, that as humans, we tend to wherever we are in our life, in our culture, it's like, my goodness, this is the worst thing ever, and it's never been this bad. But I think it's interesting listening to someone like you with the depth of experience that you've got, that it feels as though there is a more objective truth when you're saying you've never experienced this level of overcoatness that people are coming with. I pay attention to that. You've been working with people in the way that you have for a very long time. And it seems to me you are seeing an objective difference that is, I think, helpful to recognise. We can always be a bit like, okay, this just feels like this. But I think there is an objective reality to the level of complexity that we're living with right now.
Caitlín Matthews (06:51)
I think that, you know, we live in a world that has a lot of appliances and different ways to simplify. But now those things are now making life a lot more complex. And so there's another level. Then there's the level of 24-hour news, which is something that I mean, yes, it's great that it's there. If you want to see the news at any point, you only have to wait 10 minutes to get to the headlines again. But of course, if you're in, I mean, I've noticed I've been in a lot of hospitals recently. So I noticed that, you know, even in accident and emergency, the... and in the bar when the conference I was at the weekend, BBC News, 24-hour news is on all the time. So if you're drinking your Guinness or waiting to have your broken leg seen to, or whatever, or to get the saucepan off the head of your child, you know, it's 24...
Lian (07:51)
You've been there, have you?
Caitlín Matthews (07:53)
...hour news and you have to be very careful where you situate yourself because you're already, you know, if you're in accident and emergency, you're already quite panicky and you really don't need to have that brushed, backcombed anymore. So I think there's that... there's that level of thing. So whatever your own personal problems or the local difficulties that you're experiencing, maybe in your profession or your job, or maybe just locally, as we have here in Oxford, dealing with new traffic regulations about where we can go. You know, it's just that another extra level of things. And then the world level on top of it, if there's been a disaster, then of course that all they're going to do is transmit 24-hour disaster.
So all of that I think is really beginning to have an effect in a way that yes in the past there have been severe incidents in the world where there has been a disaster or a terrible thing, you know, of not necessarily of the level of 9/11 which everyone experienced, but those things come and go and we understand that, you know, natural disasters and terrorist events and so forth will be happening and wars will be happening everywhere. But they didn't use to come into our room. And now of course they're on social media as well. So I think there's a whole new layer cake of stuff that is adding another layer to the hairy overcoat. And it's getting quite scratchy now. Yeah.
Lian (09:35)
It really is. So going back to your point of in order to understand what's really there to be done, we need to first...
Caitlín Matthews (09:46)
Yeah.
Lian (09:46)
...to take that overcoat off.
Caitlín Matthews (09:49)
Yeah. Or to lay it aside and just say, it is a... it is an overcoat, it's not your stuff. You know, some of it belongs to us, but not all of it belongs to us. And I'm sort of reminded Epictetus, who was a Roman slave philosopher and he was so badly treated by his master that he became lame for the rest of his life. But he did eventually win his freedom and became a... he understood what being powerless was really about. And he always... he was a Stoic, and so he sort of... he came up with the theory that if something lies in your power, then do something about it. If it is out of your power, there's nothing you can do about it. So you know, don't fash yourself, as the Scots say.
So, which is one way of dealing with things, because of course, no, we can't change world events unless we do it corporately. We all have to, you know, be in on what we might change. So and I think that this is another level of the environment that a lot of people feel, you know, yes, the environment is in crisis and yes we do need to be responsible. But at the same time there's that sort of overwhelm which is of environmental despair? Yes, whereas the... which is an extreme powerlessness. And so I think that the overcoat can be, you know, made up of various things, but there are certain issues which affect all of us and for us as people living on Earth, that's quite a big one. So, you know, finding ways to interact with our world and have a relationship with it which isn't just a... I'm just living on this point of the Earth and it doesn't really matter, is a... is a whole other challenge.
Lian (11:48)
Very much so. What came to mind when you were talking about that overwhelm is I heard the notion of burnout described as this trifecta of aspects. It's being one of exhaustion, hopelessness, but also a kind of dissociation where we're not able to be like fully in the moment and present to life because we're kind of, you know... Yeah. And...
Caitlín Matthews (12:13)
Yes. Yeah. You're somewhere else, yes. Indeed. Yeah.
Lian (12:18)
...I was like, that's... I'm not, you know, particularly personally focused on burnout, but there was something about that that I was... I feel as though there is a subtler level of that, that trifecta that many people in our culture are experiencing without that being named. And I was thinking those three things I see showing up so much in the people in my life, the people that I... that come to me for help, I was like, yeah, there's something really interesting, there's extreme, we name it burnout, but there is a simmering stage that so many people are experiencing right now.
Caitlín Matthews (13:01)
Yeah, I think so. Because of course these things distract us and so of course then our attention is with something else. I mean, in, you know, in the quite human way that if someone near you is suffering something terrible, then of course they're in your mind... they're in your mind a lot. And so you know they are with you, which is, you know, a sense of accompanying someone at a difficult time.
But there's also the other thing, which is that you can be so with whatever else is going on that you're not present to yourself and your own... your own safety even.
But also that we're both inviting in fear and hosting it, you know, which is what we forget if we invite fear in, it settles down ever so quickly. And it just becomes that sort of... it's either a low-level anxiety or it's a high, high anxiety, which is there, which of course is another distraction in itself because when we're that worried, when we're that fearful, then it's very disabling and very... you know, again we lose power as a result of it. So I think we need... we need good strategies to be dealing with those things, but we need to recognise first that they're happening.
Lian (14:22)
Yes.
Caitlín Matthews (14:22)
And for a lot of people, as you say, with burnout, there's usually... there's usually a few signposts along the road that things might not be good, you haven't tidied your house or washed up, or that you forgot to take your tablets, or that you haven't got back to people who are essential to your health, wellbeing and love. And those sorts of things. And then, you know, and then could have complete disorder, inability to cope and then crash. So... but it's like we... it seems we don't notice some of the signposts towards these things.
Lian (15:00)
So your sense of someone who, like probably anyone listening or watching and like myself, who has an orientation towards, let's say, a kind of soulful spiritual way of living.
What we've just been speaking about is most people in our culture right now. For those of us that also have this orientation towards the spiritual, where do you feel that perhaps both maybe helps and also I don't mean necessarily hinders, but where are the particular challenges that those of us that are that way inclined might be experiencing that you're noticing?
Caitlín Matthews (15:48)
Well I think the first thing that happens is that spiritual practice is usually the casualty of this, that if there's something you're doing every day as part of your reconnection with spirit or your acknowledgement or your thankfulness or whatever it is, however your spiritual practice is formed, that it sudden... it's sort of... it's like dieback, instant dieback. You...
Lian (16:09)
Yeah, so true.
Caitlín Matthews (16:11)
...that the terrain that used to be around you when you... you know, like a flat pack opening up, that suddenly it's... the area is shrunken somewhat.
Lian (16:24)
It's like that cliché, isn't it? Like, I... the time when we say, "I haven't got time to meditate," is the time that we really need to meditate. But...
Caitlín Matthews (16:29)
Yes. Absolutely.
Lian (16:32)
...you could... "meditate" could be replaced by any other form...
Caitlín Matthews (16:35)
Yes.
Lian (16:36)
...of practice. Yes.
Caitlín Matthews (16:37)
I used to know someone who said, "So I meditate every day for an hour, but on the days when things are difficult, I have to meditate for two hours."
Yes, which of course is the ideal response to these things. But practically it's not always possible. And so I always stress with people who have a... any kind of spiritual practice is that, make sure you know what your minimum practice is and do it. Because practice is the thing, there is no advanced, there is only practice. And if you don't practise, it's like, you know, won't be able to do your craft or your skill anymore. It won't have the support that you need. And if we just take the, you know, playing the violin, you know, which is a... if you're a concert violinist, you have to practise six to eight hours a day minimum, so that you're never apart from your violin, basically. And we're never apart from our spiritual practice. So I think that the noticing that you've not lit your shrine for a few days, you know, would be quite serious in my case. It's something I do every morning, it's part of my absolutely basic spiritual practice, whatever else is coming.
And certain things that I will always do. And I may miss one or two of them, but I will... I will catch up in a less busy part of the day. So I think those are the touch points. And if we can't do that, if it really is completely hectic, you know, you're like the world tour of a celebrity or something, you know, when... but without any of those people that help you to do things like...
Lian (18:17)
Yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (18:22)
...filing your nails and making sure you have a clean hanky and those sorts of things. Then you know, you have to just make stop points where you breathe, and where you... where you let the tension out of your body because we know that things that... you know, when we get tense, everything begins to affect us. And in my case it's my gut that goes first. So that's the first sign of, "My goodness, no, I really need to really stop and cancel people this week because I'm gonna be ill otherwise." So I think...
Lian (18:58)
Yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (18:59)
...we all have body sign. There are body signs. And whether it's like you suddenly... your head is becoming part of your shoulders without benefit of neck, then obviously you can see it in people that they hold themselves in particular ways. So I think, you know, we have to do those daily things which are letting out the anguish, letting out the anger or the irritation or whatever it is. Because if that builds up then we're not functional.
Lian (19:30)
Yes, that the way you described it, "What is our minimum spiritual practice?" I think is really, really wise. And again, one of those simple things that is easily missed is like unless it's this big grand meditating for hours and praying and ritual and I don't have time for that, therefore, you know, it stops altogether, which I've had so many people... one of the first things I often say to people when they come to me, and we've been perhaps working together in some fashion for years, and then...
Caitlín Matthews (20:04)
Yeah.
Lian (20:04)
...they'll come to me saying, "I feel like I'm really off track, lost." One of the first questions I'll ask them one way or another will be, "How's your practice?" Sometimes I'll say it directly. Sometimes if it's specific to that person, I might ask about whether they've been praying. And the answer almost always is, "Well, yes..."
Caitlín Matthews (20:24)
Yeah. And see.
Lian (20:25)
"...not been great, actually."
Caitlín Matthews (20:28)
Exactly, exactly. But this is the mirror, isn't it? Because... and if you get people who are actually seeing people in one way, like therapists, for example, my first question to them when they come to me is, "Please tell me about the nature of the cases you're seeing at the moment." Because sure as anything, you know, whatever it is they've got going on, everyone is bringing them that case. And a few years ago my friend Rachel Pollack, who's a tarot reader, was being shadowed by an academic who was just trying to sort of do a... some kind of treatise on tarot and so on and tarot reading and Rachel set up a day of readings so that all the people who were coming knew there would be someone else present. And the academic knew exactly what Rachel had going on at the moment because they'd discussed it.
And then one after another after another after another after another came in and asked the same question. Yeah. Which was...
Lian (21:30)
Wow.
Caitlín Matthews (21:32)
...the thing that Rachel was dealing with at the moment. So, you know, it was...
Lian (21:35)
Right.
Caitlín Matthews (21:36)
...it was quite remarkable. But she said, you know, if I hadn't had a witness to that, no one would have believed me because it sounded too outrageous. But I find that people who are seeing other people, that it will always reflect if they're going through a messy divorce at the moment, everyone else will bring a messy divorce to them too. And it's very challenging...
Lian (21:57)
Yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (21:58)
...isn't it? You know, because I think these are... these are often, you know, this is a very strong sign that something needs to be dealt with in another manner. And sometimes... but when we have to say, "I can't see that case, I'm afraid, I'm too near it myself." Yeah. Don't have to say that to the client, but you can...
Lian (22:19)
Yes.
Caitlín Matthews (22:20)
...just say, "I would refer you to another person," so just for the sake of their own sanity because you can't... you can't sit there and have, you know, your own life... you know, reflected to you that way. It can be very, very difficult.
Lian (22:38)
Very much so. So we... and actually, I'll mention this now. We did do an episode maybe last year that was about having a daily spiritual practice. So I'm mentioning that now and we'll add that to the show notes because yeah, when we're talking about a minimal spiritual practice, there definitely will be ideas and invitations in that that would allow someone to, if they...
Caitlín Matthews (23:02)
Yes.
Lian (23:03)
...don't already have a spiritual practice, begin to create one. But also if they do, perhaps like, "Okay, what would my minimum spiritual practice be? No matter what else is going on, what's going to allow me to have that way of coming back to myself?" So going to... I think where we've just been is looking at the way that those of us that do have a spiritual orientation, it can be challenged during these times.
Caitlín Matthews (23:31)
Yes, indeed.
Lian (23:32)
And yet I also see that there... I often... just speaking personally, I notice that as things are becoming more and more challenging in the collective, which are affecting individuals in the way that we've spoken...
Caitlín Matthews (23:51)
Yes.
Lian (23:52)
...I notice my own gratitude for having that connection to something else is growing, where I'm like... yes, is not about bypassing the challenges that are going on, whether it personally or collectively, and yet having this sense of there is more, there is something deeper, there is a, as I would describe it, a kind of loving force at play in my life, in the world, is inordinately helpful.
And so I'd love to hear your sense of that 'cause in some ways it's like that is maybe the point of having it, although it can seem as though it's an inconvenience and yet another thing to do, it to me is non-negotiable because of what it provides.
Caitlín Matthews (24:39)
Indeed. Because for us, we... that gives us hope. And so I think one of our... one of our great duties at this time is to share hope. So when someone comes, you know, complaining to you about something, it's not sort of, you know, to ignore that, but to... especially if someone's doing the "Did you see that X and Y has just said this?" and, you know, and the whole thing kind of against a sink, is to bring hope as well to find something to add to that so it's not a "yes, but", but a "yes, and". Yes, to acknowledge that, because to try and shift focus onto the things that are good and the things that we can be helpful and cooperative with whatever that is, because without that hope, I think, you know, this... all this situation we've been talking about gets much worse.
So being able to share that on a level that the person we're talking to can comprehend in a very ordinary and very grounded way.
Because we are, you know, we are marvellously sustained.
Despite... and if we look back to the, you know...
Lian (26:04)
Yes.
Caitlín Matthews (26:06)
...the history of... the history of the human race, it is quite, you know, quite remarkable that we've come down, you know, the human race has come over some very narrow bridges throughout time when, you know, plagues and catastrophes and I don't know what else, you know, has come along, and yet we have this extremely powerful, sometimes quite devious and self-seeking survival instinct. But that somehow we've come through things and all our ancestors behind us have experienced not maybe the technical challenges that we have today, but different kinds of challenges, against extreme forms of authority, against overwhelming change.
As when some king decides that you have a different religion now. So how do you deal with that, you know?
So, you know, the challenges are on all sorts of levels for our ancestors. And somewhere inside us, you know, we have the survival genes that know how to deal with that because our ancestors did it. So I think that's another thing to remind people, because when you're alone fighting with something, you know, or trying to cope with immense changes, it's like it's just stopped for a minute. It was like, "What would my ancestors have done in this moment?" And just summon them up behind you, the ones that know exactly what to do in the event of plague, or the ones that know what to do in the event of... in the event of extreme aggression or whatever that is that's going on. So I think these things give us a bit more support and a bit more body to our efforts.
Lian (27:59)
Yes. There's a number of things that have come to mind as you've said that. So I'm just trying to sort through what... or just say something. When you mention ancestors, there was something popped into my mind that I only discovered or rediscovered, one might say, this week. It's my son's eighteenth birthday today. And of course, those sorts of milestones bring up all kinds of, you know... looking back at where you were 18 years ago and all those things. And both of my parents have passed. And so I was looking back at conversations I'd had with them via email. I think looking to see things they'd said about him that I might be able to share about, you know, him now 18 years...
Caitlín Matthews (28:44)
Yes, please.
Lian (28:45)
...ago. Now they're not around. Anyway, so a lot of... a lot of, you know, just... you... really immersing myself in where we were all collectively 18 years ago has been very in my mind at the moment. And the, like, radical difference in 18 years in the world that we're living in. Anyway, that's all been kind of in my awareness. And then I saw an email from my mum saying... and I don't recall, obviously it didn't have any relevance to me back then, so I had completely forgotten she'd said this, but it turns out that her maternal uncle, so my great-uncle, was what she described as a faith healer. And it was one of those little like nudges, you know, from the past where it's like, I had no idea that...
Caitlín Matthews (29:33)
Yes.
Lian (29:34)
...was something in my background, in my family. And it was... it was a really interesting kind of like almost like a little like nudge, like, yeah, see, this was something ancestral that even though I've kind of found my own path to this kind of work, I had no idea it was there in my background. And so going back to what you were talking about of ancestors, whether we are aware of it or not, chances are the very work we're called to, the challenges we have, both personally, but again, kind of how we then are meant to meet the collective, our ancestors did have those gifts, did have a way of meeting those challenges that we can draw on. And so that came to mind.
And then... was also reflecting, I'm working at the moment on a short solo podcast episode where I was... I'm intending to talk about something that I found fascinating for years is this notion of priming, where we can prime our environment to support us in whatever way it is that we're, you know, wanting to, you know, change, heal, move forward into. And so I've done lots of work on talking about things to do at priming in general. But the particular thing that I was focusing in on this episode that I have yet to do was around the importance of the people in your environment. And how I mean this is absolute common sense, but science is now catching up with the absolute common sense that the people around you have a radical effect on...
Caitlín Matthews (31:19)
Actually...
Lian (31:20)
...how you live, how you feel, how you think. So coming right back to where we were just talking about, in us being able to live this spiritual life in the times that we're in, the who we surround ourselves with, who we are in conversation with, feels more important than ever. And so I'd love to hear your... that was a very long-winded way to ask you your sense of that.
Caitlín Matthews (31:49)
No, no, absolutely. No, no, indeed. Yeah.
Well, of course, and of... and of course, people don't stay the same. So the people that you're living with go through changes, and some of those changes make them very ratty and irritable. And they may have illnesses and other needs and I mean just recently, you know, we have a very close friend whom we used to get together at least every two weeks.
And now she's very busy because of family problems. And you know, we maybe now see her every two months, three months, which is, you know, has quite a big difference to our lives and the nice things we used to do together. All of those things are part of this because people don't stay the same. You know, the love and affection that we have for people doesn't change.
But the way that we can be with them may have to change due to the circumstances that they're undergoing or that we're undergoing. And then there are these other, which is, you know, these unfortunate, the unfortunate tendency now when there's some kind of issue that's going on, whether it's a political one or other, is that people immediately go into one side or the other, that there's no... there's no area of discussion anymore. It's just like you love it, you hate it, that's it. And we have a lot of that going on all over the world where some groups of people will not talk to other groups of people because of, you know, atavistic tribal belongings, which sort of... which I think are swarming up at the moment quite strongly, as often happens at times of national fear or challenge.
So there are those things. So I'm just thinking of the, you know, things like the Brexit debate where you would, you know, you'd be just talking very generally with your friends and someone in the group would pick up a topic about that. And then suddenly you would see your friendship split. So suddenly they were in this other factionalism that you weren't aware of. And them... they might not be on the same side of opinion as yourself. And I was thinking back to Grayson Perry's... he made, the artist, he made these two vases which were the vases of Brexit and they were for both... he interviewed people on both sides and then when he finally had finished the vases and put them in his studio and got both sides in together. It was very interesting. But he'd examined all their social media and they had all the things that people generally like, like dogs and cats and football and going to the cinema and walking in the park and going to the beach and all these things. So there was... you couldn't tell from looking at them that they had different opinions.
But those sorts of things are also part of our everyday problems as well sometimes that they're... there isn't this middle ground where we can discuss things in a simple... a simple way.
And to put our point of view without laying down the law and throwing bricks at each other, which is not what we want to do. So I think those changes and currents which move all of us into different ways of being are about the changes also that we're experiencing. So finding love and pleasure and joy in being together and making good connections and new connections with new friends and in my case new students or whatever. Those things are really very important in our lives and how, you know, how that goes. And when you're suddenly out of the running, I mean like this year we've had quite a lot of sickness in the house and so it's not seeing people, and how they rally round you or what they say, what they do. But a lot of people don't have much time anymore. And so suddenly if you're ill you suddenly get this... an excess of time in which you could do all sorts of things but you're not well enough to do them.
So... yeah.
Lian (36:19)
Yeah, it's a very good point, that division that seems more... not just... it feels as though there's a number of different things to be divided about. That feels it's increased in...
Caitlín Matthews (36:37)
Yes, yes.
Lian (36:38)
...current times. And funny enough, this week's episode we're releasing on the podcast is with Caroline Carey and we were talking about the Mandorla, in between the kind of... so...
Caitlín Matthews (36:53)
Yes.
Lian (36:53)
...the sort of union of opposites and how...
Caitlín Matthews (36:55)
Yes.
Lian (36:58)
Those of us that either are neurodivergent or have this kind of like spiritual way of seeing the world often don't...
Caitlín Matthews (37:05)
Yes.
Lian (37:06)
...feel so pulled to one side or the other. We seem to see the world often through the lens of "both and"... truth of life, let's say. I think it does ease things somewhat, where it doesn't feel like the only thing that's real is this choice between opposites. Like we have to pick a side. There... there is a deeper way of being able to see the world, see ourselves, that softens that somewhat. It doesn't mean that we won't always have an opinion, but I don't feel like we are going to be so clinging to that as the only important thing.
Caitlín Matthews (37:57)
Yeah. Well of course the key to all this, we all have innate prejudices. We can't help it, I will eat Marmite and you might not, it will... it will vary. But it's that... it's thinking of us rather than them and us.
And it's the them and us mindset that sort of brings that about.
Because of course, we're all human beings. Doesn't matter what size, shape, colour, nationality we are. We all... we all like, like Grayson Perry's, you know, vases of Brexit, we all like similar things. We all like going to the beach and having ice cream, we all like playing with our children in the park and so on. So there are more things that connect us than divide us. And of course there are things that are, you know, gaping injustices and places where services are not meeting requirement. And so all of those things need bridging. So it's the... we need to discuss how we bridge, you know, the gap and what nature of bridge that might be and how we bring it about, which is much more cooperative. But we very rarely hear of those things. You know there are projects going on all over the world that are precisely about bringing together peoples who would not otherwise talk to each other, as like the initiatives in Northern Ireland. And despite that, you know, yes, there are mixed schools in Northern Ireland now, but there are still people who are... have very convinced opinions on either side, who are still determined to throw bricks at each other. So, you know, so we've got all of that all at the same time.
So, how... how do we bridge? How do we bridge this time and another time? How do we bridge the, you know, the failure of things to work with things becoming a working possibility? Those are always the equations that we're looking at.
And some of that is about what we do, and it may mean protest and writing complaints and suggesting things.
But also we're not alone in that, that we can call upon whatever access we have to spirit to say, please, we need... we need a help here, we need... we need some support for the bridge. And something I noticed that I've been doing quite a lot recently for people is that they fall into... people who fall into a bureaucratic morass. So to give you an example, someone has got a court case, and their court case is completely and utterly bedevilled by all sorts of drawbacks and things that go wrong, including all their papers get sent to Carlisle rather than the... I think to Nottingham or whatever. So I've actually been doing work for some people who are in these kinds of cases to find them an advocate spirit. So someone who can go behind the lines and just nudge people to put things in the right in-tray or to actually get back to a client and phone them and tell them what's going on. Because people get stuck in these kind of bureaucratic limbos more and more now. And those seem to be quite effective spirits. And you know, they might be in humanoid form, they might be in animal form, they might be in some other form.
But they seem to be really necessary right now and it's sort of... I find it interesting that those cases are coming up so much now.
Yeah.
Lian (41:54)
Yeah, there's... we're kind of coming up on time, so... but I feel like there's a whole conversation we could have about that. That's... yeah.
Caitlín Matthews (42:03)
You know, get the allies for what's going on, is I think the, you know, the short form of this is the... if you're struggling with something that's...
Lian (42:09)
Yes, yes.
Caitlín Matthews (42:11)
...not working, then you know, ask for one of the spirits that you either already have or one that might step forward to please come and assist in whatever way would be helpful.
Lian (42:25)
Yeah, very much so. So coming back to where we began when you were describing that very heavy, hairy overcoat and...
Caitlín Matthews (42:36)
Yes.
Lian (42:37)
...the need to lay it aside, it seems to me that part of that goes back to something else you were saying about noticing what it is that we can do something to help and noticing the places that there isn't anything that we can do to help. And I wonder maybe this is oversimplifying it, but I think a lot of that overcoat is made up of things that actually we are helpless to do anything about right now. And...
Caitlín Matthews (43:08)
Mostly, yes, indeed. Yeah.
Lian (43:11)
...so if you were to... if you were to say to people listening that do recognise, "Yes, goodness me, like, there is... there is an overcoat present here," what would your... what would your recommendation be?
Caitlín Matthews (43:27)
I would say look at the fabric of the overcoat and see what it's made up of because some of the things will be our own. They may be things that we've been, you know, putting up with and not actually actively saying, "I don't want this to happen. I don't want to take these drugs," or "These drugs are making me sick," or, you know, whatever. You know, get back to the authorities on that and, you know, give them a runaround.
The things that we're just... it's the world's worry. It's like when you're reading social media, are these things that you're taking on your opinion or are they someone else's? Because it's very easy to be swayed when you've read three or four emails that are saying the same thing or, you know, texts or messages, or things that you've read on Facebook or Instagram.
So are these things yours? How do you actually feel about these things? And for everything else, consign it into the hands of that which is greater than yourself, because that needs an awful lot more help. Yeah. And if there are... if there are countries and nations or groups of people that are struggling and for whom you feel great sympathy, then you know, speak to the spiritual angel of that group or nation.
Because that's also quite an effective way of working and it's like, you know, it's your responsibility. I'm... you know, I'm asking for things to be done in a better way, if that's possible.
Lian (45:11)
Yeah, it come... it kind of comes to mind as you say that, more and more it feels to me that kind of if in doubt, pray, you know, whatever pray looks... praying looks like, yeah, it's which takes us right back to, you know, there needs to be that minimal spiritual practice in place. But prayer is, it seems to me, that much underutilised route to meet so much of the challenges of these times.
Caitlín Matthews (45:43)
Yeah. Well, that's what I've currently on Substack got a course which is called The Art of Natural Prayer, which is for anyone at all. It doesn't matter whether you've done this before or have done it in such a way that you will never wish to do again. Then this is just how it comes out for you.
Lian (46:03)
Really good. Well, I think Caitlín, we've yet again managed to dive deep and all over the place...
Caitlín Matthews (46:13)
We did all over.
Lian (46:15)
...discussing this. It's been a real delight and hopefully there's been something here that will help people to lay down that overcoat. And as ever, where can people find out more about you and the wonderful breadth and depth of the work that you do?
Caitlín Matthews (46:35)
Indeed. Well I'll just do the Substack first as I just mentioned it. That's Hallowquest, H-A-L-L-O-W quest, all one word, dot substack.com. You can find that there. It's a subscriber-only one, but I don't think it will set you back a lot. And my work is up on my website, which is again Hallowquest, spelt the same way, hallowquest.org.uk, and that has all our latest courses on. My shamanic practice is not listed on there because I frankly have more people than I can see. So I'm usually referring clients to other people now. And I won't be seeing any new clients now until the new year is well in. So...
Lian (47:32)
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Caitlín. This has been as ever a real pleasure. Always so good to catch up with you.
Caitlín Matthews (47:38)
It's great to see you and talk to you again, Lian. And so I hope the rest of the year goes well for you.
Lian (47:45)
Likewise, yeah, my love and blessings to you always, Caitlín. Thank you so much.
Caitlín Matthews (47:50)
Thank you.
Lian (47:51)
Thank you for joining me for another episode of the Wild Sovereign Soul Show. If this conversation has stirred something that you want to follow deeper, that's exactly what UNIO is for. UNIO is our fellowship for Wild Sovereign Souls, and twice each month, Jonathan and I meet with members to meet you in whatever is challenging you, calling you, or both. And we will meet you exactly where you are and support you to move forward. The link for that is wildsovereignsoul.com/unio. And show notes and other links are at wildsovereignsoul.com. If you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, follow or subscribe wherever you're listening or watching. And until then, I'm sending you all my love as you walk your Wild Sovereign Soul Path.